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Author Topic: Suspicious Host Behavior... on ME!  (Read 1645 times)
kipley
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« on: March 05, 2010, 15:47 »

Wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but since there's already a post in here about a host kicking all the human players to go on to win against the computer AI, figured that this was a good enough home for it.  Anyways:

I was the game host for this game:
http://www.planetmule.com/hi-score-game/game?game_id=20776

On round 4, the game simultaneously lost connection with all three of the other human players.  The computer automatically replaced them all with computer players.  I was the only player unaffected and able to continue.

I'll be the first to admit that on the face of it, this is highly suspicious behavior.  Especially since Rhodan was in the game, and he and I are currently in a tight race for the weekly high-score medal.  If I'd been one of the booted players, I'd naturally suspect that the host was up to some sort of foul play.  I give my word that I did NOT do anything to boot the other players, it happened on its own, and I was not happy to see it happen.  Of course, on the internet, the worth of one's "word" is pretty much useless, so I can only offer this circumstantial evidence in my defense:

- It was way early in the game, certainly too close to tell who was going to win.
- I've hosted many games to completion where I got my butt kicked.  (I'm not afraid to lose... I've learned the most strategy in games where I was beaten.)

Anyways, if anyone can look at the log and determine what happened, that would be great.  I'd rather this sort of thing didn't happen again, and will stop hosting games if for some reason my machine can no longer reliably host a game to completion.
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kipley
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2010, 15:54 »

Attached are the log files, if that helps analysis any.  All the better to help clear my name, or incriminate me, as the case may be.
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kipley
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2010, 16:02 »

Also, I continued to play the game to completion against the computers.  Which could also be construed as suspicious behavior.  The reason I continued on was because of the stigma associated with having a high "abandon" rate.  I'd prefer to keep my abandon rate as low as possible, so I've adopted a philosophy of not quitting games.

I would whole-heartedly support Planet MULE if they were to implement these ideas:
- Not counting games towards the high-score list if they finish with only one human player.
- Not counting games as abandons if ALL the players abandon.

If both the above ideas were implemented, it would help alleviate all types of dubious "game the system" type strategies.  And make it a lot less suspicious when a host actually does have some sort of network weirdness happen.
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data2008
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2010, 16:41 »

I would whole-heartedly support Planet MULE if they were to implement these ideas:
- Not counting games towards the high-score list if they finish with only one human player.
- Not counting games as abandons if ALL the players abandon.

We will go a different route in the future for hosting games, mainly to have them hosted on a server.
So then it will be possible to see if 3 players or even 4 players all leave the game on their own,
as to not count games, where now the host simply quits, and therefore all 4 players are automatically out (abandoned).

People can not be kicked then by the one player to host a game, since no one is hosting anymore, but only if 3 players agree to kick a player.
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Pescado
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 16:47 »

I don't think that's intrinsically suspicious, all the players probably got disconnected because of a common router failure. Like I said, while it's POSSIBLE to selectively boot, it requires a level of technical competence that is not typical, and someone with that level of technical competence has better ways to cheat to first.
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piete
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 16:57 »

I'm sure kipley's guilty, let's ban him from Planetmule or at least reset his score!  Grin

Yours truly,
the desperate Wink
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Govt Mule
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 17:19 »

People can not be kicked then by the one player to host a game, since no one is hosting anymore, but only if 3 players agree to kick a player.

What happens if 4 players start, 1 player lags so the other 3 kick him.  Then one of the remaining 3 human players begin to lag - we'll be stuck since it takes 3 to kick?


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data2008
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 17:26 »

Of course in a 4 player game 3 players agree to kick...
If players are reduced or non-4-humans to start with, the rules have to be different.
Also, if 2 people get stuck at same time...

The system will have to adapt and be flexible.
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Rhodan
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2010, 15:30 »

Since Mr Kipley has used my name in his post I feel obligated to reply.

Ask Mr Kipley this question.

Why didn't he quit the game against 3 AI players, when he was ask to, to join a new one with the very same 3 people who all supposedly left the game on their own will or by act of GOD like Mr Kipley would lead you to believe?
 
Whats the point of beating three AIs?  Higher Rank?

We can all look at the logs to make a confident determination of a player's choice in opponents, if we wish to take precious time away from playing our beloved game

The current ranking system, in its present form, means nothing and Mr. Kipley's logs' that he would like you to view, does show his choices. View them and make your own conclusions.

His name is now on my list next to Mr Akire1's. 

I invite either one of this people to play a game with me hosted by a proven player but I will not play when they are hosting.
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kipley
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2010, 16:54 »

Why didn't he quit the game against 3 AI players, when he was ask to, to join a new one with the very same 3 people who all supposedly left the game on their own will or by act of GOD like Mr Kipley would lead you to believe?

By the time I saw your post in the lobby asking me to play in your new game, it was already too late to join.  I made my posts in the lobby explaining that the game had kicked you three out, but then I went back to playing the game that I was in, and didn't check back into the lobby again for a while.  Unfortunately, the main lobby isn't an effective means of communicating with somebody who's already playing a game.  If players could visit games in progress and make chats there, that would work better, but that's not the system that's currently in place.

Whats the point of beating three AIs?  Higher Rank?

The point is to keep my abandon rate low, as there's a stigma attached to high abandon rates.  But I'll admit, yes, I'm having fun trying to raise my rank as well.  I'm not so set on raising my rank to purposely game the system by booting other players from my games, but I am interested enough to keep on playing when they get disconnected by other factors not under my control.

We can all look at the logs to make a confident determination of a player's choice in opponents, if we wish to take precious time away from playing our beloved game

My choice algorithm is as follows:  If another host already has a game up, I'll sometimes join it, sometimes not.  It depends on my ping with the other host, whether I believe they'll host the game to conclusion, and whether or not I feel like putting up with the fact that I won't be playing as orange.  (I tend to make mistakes when playing as a different color, as I've gotten used to orange.)

If there are no other games waiting on players, I'll create my own to host.  My choice algorithm for allowing players into my games is as follows:  I'll let anyone play, unless they have a ridiculously high abandon rate, or if they've never played a tourney game to completion before.  I'll let in newbs as well as players that are higher ranked than me.  I never avoid stronger competition.  On the flip side, I also don't tend to seek stronger competition out, as waiting for the perfect set of opponents is often a long, boring process that I'd much rather spend actually playing the game.

As for AI players, if we've been waiting a while and it looks like it'll take a while to get 4 players, I'll ask the others in the game if they want to go with AI.  If anyone vetoes the AI idea, I respect it and continue to wait for humans.  If everyone is ok with AI, I'll add it when we get tired of waiting for humans.

I think my game history will provide ample evidence that the above is an accurate summary of how I choose my opponents.

The current ranking system, in its present form, means nothing

I agree with you on this one.  In that, the current ranking system is pretty much a reflection of how much a player plays, rather than how well he plays.  Absolutely, no doubt about it.  The fact that I'm high on the list does not mean I'm one of the best players, and I have no illusion that I am.  Several other threads have suggested alternate ranking systems that would produce a list that better reflects skill, and I heartily agree that would be a good thing.

Mr. Kipley's logs' that he would like you to view, does show his choices.

Probably so.  I haven't analyzed the logs extensively myself, nor would I even know what to look for if I did.  And I have no idea if the data within them would back up my claim that the kicking of the other three players happened through no intervention of my own, or not.  I posted them just in case they would.  And also because you threatened in the main lobby to trash my name in this forum (a threat that you've now carried out), so I felt that it would be in my best interest to be proactive about this situation and present my side of the story as well and as promptly as I could.

His name is now on my list next to Mr Akire1's. 

That is, of course, your right.  And honestly, I don't blame you... I'd think twice about joining a game by a host that has apparently kicked me out.  I won't try and convince you to do otherwise.

To other folks that would shun me, I would attempt to allay your fears by pointing out that I've played lots of games (obviously, a lot more than most), and this is the only game where my machine has suddenly kicked out all the human competition, so the empirical evidence would at least suggest that if I am trying to game the system, at least I'm very lazy about it!   Wink

I invite either one of this people to play a game with me hosted by a proven player but I will not play when they are hosting.

I may take you up on the invite, but honestly, your choice to indite me over one single incident, which can easily be attributed to a network anomaly, and when there's no further evidence that I'm doing anything wrong, leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.  If I played again against you, I'd be worried about anything going wrong leading you to trashing my name again.  If I lost connection in this new game, would you further blast me for suspicious behavior?  It's a risk that doesn't seem to have any associated reward to it, so I'm hesitant to accept it.
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Pescado
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 01:23 »

I don't think Kipley is evil in this case, and I'm good with spotting evil behavior, so...
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Chuckie Chuck
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2010, 23:07 »

Server was plagued with timeout issues the last few weeks I had noticed.  I had more than one game with a random disconnect, in which everyone got disconnected, and last time I tried to host, I was at my gfs and her router flaked out (which is not unusual, and so I generally don't play when I'm at her house, let alone host.)
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My other computer is a C64.
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