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Author Topic: same player / IP allowed multiple times per game?  (Read 2453 times)
Intergalactic Mole
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2010, 04:17 »

I'm not even sure I'd agree to that... What's wrong if friends and I decide to toss in a Mule party while sharing a pizza?

I will repeat myself for the third time, and will continue to repeat myself for as long as you refuse to differentiate my statement.  My suggestion does not prevent you from having your MULE party.  It just prevents the results of it from being ranked on the master server against other legitimate players who haven't selectively picked their partners.  Have your MULE party and give out cookies to the winner.  I don't know you well enough to believe you that you aren't playing from two laptops simply for the purpose of cheating your way to rank #1.  If the world was based on trust, there would be no laws.

... but a much better and reliable one to implement is a MAC-address based restriction. *That* is unique.

The issue isn't whether or not your computer is unique.  The issue is whether YOU are unique.  MAC address poses the same problem: You can still play from 2 computers sitting right next to each other... cheating your way to the top rank.

Many gaming sites on the net have used a restricted IP safeguard to prevent cheating in the ranks.  I've never heard of anyone complaining about having the same IP as everyone else in their neighborhood.  I'm willing to bet that this web site never gets that complaint either.  With regard to people playing from a corporate network, shame on them for doing it in the first place.  The needs of the many (people with individual IP addresses playing in real competition) outweigh the needs of the one (the guy who wants to host a ranked mule party or play from work because hes bored).

Rather than continuing to justify why people should be allowed to cheat why don't you try suggesting a way to safeguard that works as an alternative to the IP restriction.  This is about scoring.  If you are just playing for fun, then there is no need to be worried about an IP restriction.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 04:23 by Intergalactic Mole » Logged
ddebernardy
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 15:35 »

Yeah, but... Fast forward in a few years, and picture a Mule club that gains momentum on a university campus. In this case, having multiple players playing against each other in as many whereabouts, all behind the same IP, becomes a certainty. That alone should rule out restrictions based on IP addresses.

Plus, no amount of safe-guards will ever prevent two friends from taking turns at giving each other a massive beating.

Seriously, if the concern is about users who cheat for rank, fix the ranking system instead. To do that, consider Go as a source of inspiration, rather than the hopelessly broken ranking algorithms that are used in online gaming communities.

Go ranks have been around for almost 2,000 years, so you'd be hard pressed to find anything that is more tried and tested. They're not about Joe is 1st, Jane is 2nd; rather, they're about Joe is 2-dan, Jane is 1-dan. Joe's Go rank basically asserts the probability that he'll beat Jane in an even game.

On the lower-end (kyu), Go ranks are mostly self-assessed. On the higher-end (dan), the consistency of the outcome in games vs varied opponents of similar (i.e. dan) rank is what counts.

In other words, if you're beating 1-dan players 50% of the time, you're 1-dan; if you're beating 1-dan players 80% of the time, you're 2-dan. By contrast, if you're beating self-assessed 1-kyu players 80% of the time, the best you can do is self-assess that you're probably 1-dan: you'll need to play confirmed dan players in order to confirm your own 1-dan rank.

Note that the Go ranking system kills cheating at its inception, too. No amount of trampling phony users with a kyu rank will let you cheat your way to a 1-dan rank. And if you take the time to grow enough phony users to 1-dan rank in order to artificially boost yourself to higher dan ranks, you'll have played so much that you'll probably have achieved that higher dan rank anyway.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 15:43 by ddebernardy » Logged
Intergalactic Mole
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2010, 15:51 »

Yeah, but... Fast forward in a few years, and picture a Mule club that gains momentum on a university campus. In this case, having multiple players playing against each other in as many whereabouts, all behind the same IP, becomes a certainty. That alone should rule out restrictions based on IP addresses.

Again, this is a closed tournament scenario (similar to your Mule party idea) where the users should be ranking among themselves and not the outside competition.  Since not everyone on Planet MULE is a member of this "Mule club", then they should be keeping track of their own ranks.  There are sites that facilitate such tournaments such as Cases Ladder.

Plus, no amount of safe-guards will ever prevent two friends from taking turns at giving each other a massive beating.

Once again, and for the fourth time now, I never implied that two friends should not be able to play together.  However, I merely stated that their personal little tournament should not be ranked against the rest of Planet MULE. Even if they were playing from separate IP's, there would still be a problem here.  If two players just play each other repeatedly there should be a penalty in ranking ability after a certain number of games, so that the Planet Mule #1 rank doesnt end up belonging to the winner of a 2-man tournament.

Seriously, if the concern is about users who cheat for rank, fix the ranking system instead. To do that, consider Go as a source of inspiration, rather than the hopelessly broken ranking algorithms that are used in online gaming communities.

Go ranks have been around for almost 2,000 years, so you'd be hard pressed to find anything that is more tried and tested. They're not about Joe is 1st, Jane is 2nd; rather, they're about Joe is 2-dan, Jane is 1-dan. Joe's Go rank basically asserts the probability that he'll beat Jane in an even game.

On the lower-end (kyu), Go ranks are mostly self-assessed. On the higher-end (dan), the consistency of the outcome in games vs varied opponents of similar (i.e. dan) rank is what counts.

In other words, if you're beating 1-dan players 50% of the time, you're 1-dan; if you're beating 1-dan players 80% of the time, you're 2-dan. By contrast, if you're beating self-assessed 1-kyu players 80% of the time, the best you can do is self-assess that you're probably 1-dan: you'll need to play confirmed dan players in order to confirm your own 1-dan rank.

Note that the Go ranking system kills cheating at its inception, too: no amount of trampling phony users with a kyu rank will let you cheat your way to a 1-dan rank.

Finally you have come up with another suggestion.  That is really what needs to be done instead of pointlessly continuously arguing my valid point.

I am not familiar with the Go system but I will give it a read-up when I have some time.  

In the meantime, I do have to say that not all online gaming communities have hopelessly broken ranking algorithms.  As I and someone else have pointed out, games.asobrain.com uses a very successful implementation of the ELO rating system.  They use the IP restriction and they also have an algorithm that lowers the score gaining ability of users that play agains the same persons over and over.  It works quite well and their ranking system is quite accurate.  Since it's a board game with multiple players, I use them as a reference to how the ranking system should work.  It's not perfect, but it does a good job at avoiding the cheating.
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MrBrown
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2010, 17:05 »

As for ISPs, some in Europe give the same IP address to an entire neighborhoods. It's even more pronounced in Asia, where ISPs have even less IP addresses to distribute than we do.
I am from Germany and no German ISP I've ever come across gives the same IP to two different persons at the same time.

At universities or in companys there will be many people with the same IP adress (using NAT, Network Adress Translation), but at home that's definitely not true in Germany. And I'm 99% sure the same goes for Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Sweden, etc. There might be some exotic exceptions, but these are not the rule.

IMHO protecting the ranking system from abuse is more important than enabling ranked matches for players with the same IP, I agree with Intergalactic Mole.
Even if they were playing from separate IP's, there would still be a problem here.  If two players just play each other repeatedly there should be a penalty in ranking ability after a certain number of games, so that the Planet Mule #1 rank doesnt end up belonging to the winner of a 2-man tournament.
I agree with that too.
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