Map Generation (Kroah 2.2)

[Big Head Zach]

I'm with you on trying to make gameplay more varied, but moving back towards the originals is not necessarily going to further that goal.

I'm mostly interested that the calculations behind the scenes are correct, because that's the engine that makes the game work, regardless of what the map does.

Also, even in the early game EOS is a very huge factor. If I grab a 3x mountain, an adjacent plains tile is worth as much as a distant 2x mountain. Plus it has the flexibility to produce decent food/energy if necessary.

Agree! But there's a visual "splinter" in my mind that has trouble understanding that one can theoretically make as much Smithore making one big factory on 6 adjacent plains spaces (24) as on 4 adjacent triple-mountain spaces (24), all for the cost of 2 additional MULEs ($350 minimum including outfitting). One starts to wonder why the mountains are necessary...but perhaps I've answered my own question.

I'll feel much better about it once Crystite bonuses get restored  

[Stormdancer]

... to prevent the game from becoming completely formulaic and "solvable", excluding the occasional hiccups caused by Planetquakes and Fire in Store.

If I can do the same thing every game and win (or have it comes down to who randomly grabbed what, i.e. rock-paper-scissors scenario), then it ceases to be fun for me. I'd rather have a game that forces me to be aware at all times, and adapt to what's going on.

Yes, this.  Ten thousand times, this.

[Jaradakar]

But for EOS you have to claim adjacent spaces, which (in the long term) may be terrible/suboptimal for Smithore/Crystite production. It becomes a matter of how best to exploit the land you've acquired, and then (in the first place) know where the long-term profits are going to come from. Having an early big-producer can give you a boost and make you more self-sufficient during the inevitable store sellout. There's a definite "gear-shift" in the game where you go from acquiring self-sufficiency (or symbiotic trade agreements with other players) to being a mass-producer of Smithore/Crystite. How and when you perform that gear-shifting is what separates a beginning player from a veteran player.

Remember, barring land auctions, you're going to acquire 11 plots during the game. Your goal is to end up producing as much of whatever good is most valuable during the last 1/4 of the game. Changes in terrain balance can affect that.

Long term profits can only come from smithore in the current game. A good player will setup their own food and energy plots so you won't need to pay through the nose for them, and once this happens players will usually sell extras rather than letting them go to waste.

If you play smart in the early game you can snag 1-2 extra plots, meaning you can get at least +3 LCT for your smithore plots. As for your plots being bad for EOS...all I can say is that the map is very open, and it is extremely easy to get all your lands adjacent with intelligent land positioning. I rarely have solitary plots playing with human players or A.I. I don't think it would even be possible to stop this from happening, it is just too wide open.

Also, the store sellout is not inevitable. I'm not sure that saving up ore is wise in the early game anyway, but even if other players do so, you can choose not to if you like.

That does bring up another issue, in tournament mode of the original game the land grant moved much faster than it the current mode.  So it was harder to get the plots you wanted some times...

I seem to remember my brothers often times screwing me over by picking up plots that would give me a good EOS bonus.  Do you never have that?   Also being older and wiser, I now realize that it's better to make a move that improves my position than one that screws just 1 other person in a multiplayer game.

Is the EOS in the original game too good?  What if it was changed to a 0.5 bonus instead of 1 (or 0-1 so each EOS location would not be guaranteed, but turn to turn could change)?  Would land types matter more?  Should they matter more?

[machinus]

But for EOS you have to claim adjacent spaces, which (in the long term) may be terrible/suboptimal for Smithore/Crystite production. It becomes a matter of how best to exploit the land you've acquired, and then (in the first place) know where the long-term profits are going to come from. Having an early big-producer can give you a boost and make you more self-sufficient during the inevitable store sellout. There's a definite "gear-shift" in the game where you go from acquiring self-sufficiency (or symbiotic trade agreements with other players) to being a mass-producer of Smithore/Crystite. How and when you perform that gear-shifting is what separates a beginning player from a veteran player.

Remember, barring land auctions, you're going to acquire 11 plots during the game. Your goal is to end up producing as much of whatever good is most valuable during the last 1/4 of the game. Changes in terrain balance can affect that.

Long term profits can only come from smithore in the current game. A good player will setup their own food and energy plots so you won't need to pay through the nose for them, and once this happens players will usually sell extras rather than letting them go to waste.

If you play smart in the early game you can snag 1-2 extra plots, meaning you can get at least +3 LCT for your smithore plots. As for your plots being bad for EOS...all I can say is that the map is very open, and it is extremely easy to get all your lands adjacent with intelligent land positioning. I rarely have solitary plots playing with human players or A.I. I don't think it would even be possible to stop this from happening, it is just too wide open.

Also, the store sellout is not inevitable. I'm not sure that saving up ore is wise in the early game anyway, but even if other players do so, you can choose not to if you like.

That does bring up another issue, in tournament mode of the original game the land grant moved much faster than it the current mode.  So it was harder to get the plots you wanted some times...

I seem to remember my brothers often times screwing me over by picking up plots that would give me a good EOS bonus.  Do you never have that?   Also being older and wiser, I now realize that it's better to make a move that improves my position than one that screws just 1 other person in a multiplayer game.

Is the EOS in the original game too good?  What if it was changed to a 0.5 bonus instead of 1 (or 0-1 so each EOS location would not be guaranteed, but turn to turn could change)?  Would land types matter more?  Should they matter more?

I rarely get plot-blocked, for three reasons:

1) The map is very wide open, and land auctions are randomly placed. The game strongly encourages EOS completion.

2) If you pick your plots smartly, you can have many potential spots in the midgame for EOS bonus. Even if everyone worked together, you would still be able to get EOS bonuses eventually.

3) Working together to block someone else is really bad because you are reducing all of your own production. This is not a sound strategy.

EOS bonuses are just fine at +1. I really think there should be no decrease in production abilities - only making the other resources more competitive. There are a lot of reasons for this but I think most people agree on it anyway so I won't get into it.

[Blitzen]

It did say something about the store taking a full turn to develop Mules, but that was kinda untrue...

In the C64 version anyway, the store didn't replace Mules until after the auction, even if it had units.  So you could buy all the Mules and empty the store in one turn.

PS I think the Smithore market is as it should be (version 1.2.3), it requires two people minimum but is easily stopped as long as you don't ever get caught without mountains / stockpile, three people can usually force it down one unwilling party's throat... but that's just too beautiful to change.

However, I have only played 2 tournaments in the new version... and it seems obvious the game has changed something very fundamental which may make it harder to switch back into Smithore / Crystite - time to deploy Mules, in c64 games we can get 3 out anywhere, usually make the pub and can put up to 4 if they are food mules to the right side of the store... the most I can get out in this version is usually 2 and 4 if and only if they are right and food... I think the biggest cause is the time it takes to cross the store has been increased.

Also, the money moves too fast in auctions, making it possible to transfer all my money (any amount) to another player. That in my mind is a much bigger mistake and leaves massive room for out and out abusive players.

Just my 2 bars of smithore.

[piete]

This is a bit OT but Blitzen, it is on the contrary with this version, I can change 6 plots if they are well located, on C64 I could only max 4 I think, and also develop 4 fresh plots easily whereas on C64 I could only develop max 3 (ok, maybe 4 if 2 of them were food on the right).

[Rhodan]

Maybe he was playing beginner mode which  gives you more time. If I remember correctly flapper was the beginner mode.

[Blitzen]

I would agree that swapping a mule is faster in this game, especially under ideal circumstances.

But alot of what I am trying to talk about has to do with not being able to hit the middle of the store I guess.

We only ever used standard players in tournaments games so it wasn't Flapper, that's not it.

Try and place 3 crystite (new mules) to the left of the store, not the plot right beside the store either... now try this on the c64 / atari (i assume).

Now try and swap more than 5 mules of any type in any of the plots not beside the store, I think you will find vast differences.

It could simply be the middle of the store isn't working as intended, but I have no experience using only the left and right entrances on the c64 to setup a truly fair comparison with this game.

There may be setups under the c64 where you can only put out 2 new mules as well but they are fewer and far between by and large.

[Pescado]

I think the reason you have the apparent ability to do more is purely due to the way movement and timing is slightly different, and generally faster.