Tite Tracking = Cheating

[jagov808]

It finally hit me, the one arguement which even the most diehard 'cheater' could not refute.

We can agree that in general terms the game should be played as originally designed.

Why would the designer, [who I can not refer to directly as Im not allowed to talk about trans-garbage as per Chuckie's instructions (in actuality I never said anything derogatory about trans-people, any direct negative implication has arisen in Chuckie's mind)], show your assay results but not the assay results of others? Clearly it is not a programming issue. The clear implication is that the designer intended for part of the fun of the game to be remembering the results of the other assays.

I suppose the tite tracker crowd would be equally impressed if they could be provided with an excel macro to help them with budgeting per round, and figuring out how much ore should be bought and sold. and creating scenario analysis based on others branching decisions. Again this would take away the fun.

The game loses its meaning when it becomes mechanical, it is about making quick decisions based upon the information one has at hand. Yes, in this respect using pen and paper is cheating. It is just less effective cheating. In sports there are instances of refined cheating and more rudimentary cheating as well.

Maybe the word cheating appears too harsh, and in any event it cannot be policed. We can say though that using tite trackers shows poor sportsmanship since it violates the spirit of the game. If everyone uses tite trackers it just means that everyone is exercising poor sportsmanship. Can Lance Armstrong now say 'but everyone else was doing it too'?

[nordel]

Interesting point, but not valid. 1983 the game was played on one screen.

@Mr Armstrong: He sure can, and he did.
http://vimeo.com/58191312

[jagov808]

You see ladies, gentlemen and those in between, Nordel loves this game so much he is an astute historian. Indeed he is correct the game was played on one screen in its infancy. However, in his exuberance to communicate with you his devoted followers and deliver this interesting tidbit from the past, he seems to have inadvertently forgot the original point to which he was adding his comments.

The fact the game was played on one screen clearly has no relation to the point that assays are recorded visually on a per player basis rather than all assays completed by every player. In fact it actually strengthens the orginal talking point, since one is not obstructed in any manner from viewing the activities of one's opponents.

Nevertheless, I am sure we all value any and all input Nordel can provide on this and a myriad of other issues. We are very lucky as a community to have attracted such a benevolent celebrity.

[Chuckie Chuck]

Have to somewhat agree with Jag on this one.  The original version you did have to record the assays on paper or remember them.  There were no markers left behind to remind you of the results.  That's why so many of us did use paper.

However, I don't believe that it was intended that people not track tite.  Why give an assay feature in the first place if you want people to take shots in the dark?  On the computers of the day, having a tite tracking program would have been impossible unless you had a separate computer with a program written for the purpose, they couldn't multi-task.  We'd not even really thought of multi-tasking.  That concept was not realized until the late 80s, and not to the levels we are used to now until the mid 90s.

SO...   I still believe the tite tracking programs we know to be in use are legitimate tools.

[Rogue Cat]

Based on that, should we all refrain from catching the wampus? Because it was a hell to catch it in the original game, and this one is very much like "Wampus hunting for cheetahs". You don't even have to "attack" when it is being displayed. (And you could easily do 4 assays in that time, enjoying the signs and not having to remember them at all.)

How do we know that it was the idea of assays being done? There was just a single screen for all players back then, how do we know that the original stuff was not intended to be "my turn now, everyone else looking at the floor until I'm done"? Because you might want to make your assays in private, after all, it was your own time.

We are back to the same topic, it all depends on the "standards" each community uses for their gameplay.

[jagov808]

Why does a question mark appear when one places a new crystite mine on a non-assayed spot? This is the case even if the plot has been 'solved' via other assays. Yet, we do not see this question mark for the other three commodities. What could this suggest about the designers intent?

[Chuckie Chuck]

Because you don't know what it's supposed to produce until it starts producing.  Same as the original.  If it told you immediately when you put the mule in, you'd probably move the mule, it's be a cheat to assay faster.

[Rhodan]

Why don't we discuss something with more meaning and impact to the game instead of Jag's inability to win because he can't keep track of assays and evidently chooses not to use a tracker. Like the crying liberal democratic socialists programmer's decision to remove round one individual bad and good events for the common good of all. Also the removal of some global events from the first two rounds.

[Chuckie Chuck]

Yeah, Rho, well said.

[jagov808]

'Because you don't know what it's supposed to produce until it starts producing'

I will admit I am debating this merely from an intellectual perspective at this stage. Minds have been made up and even if EA hosted a press conference revealing a secret diary of the creator highlighting his intentions it would have no effect.

For those interested in law, english, philosophy and the precise use of language let's examine the highlighted text from Chuckie. If we just skim across the words, we may think to ourselves I like Chuckie, I like tite tracking, this must add credence to my worldview. However, what Chuckie has written, more concisely then I was able to muster, is the very essence of the point I have been trying to make.

In his rush to rebut my point about the question marks appearing, Chuckie has forged the central thesis of his opposition. If one reads what I wrote I did not question why the question mark always appeared, but only in those instances where one did know the amount of tite available based upon previous assays. The answer benevolently provided by Chuckie 'Because you don't know what it's supposed to produce until it starts producing'. The possibility of some doubt in players minds was purposefully left in the game to provide a thin edge to exploit for observant players.

[Chuckie Chuck]

Ok, you make no sense at all.  First off, some assumptions, and it's in the original documentation

Rivers are 4 food, 2 energy.
Plains are 3 energy, 2 food, 1 smithore, RANDOM tite.
Mountain one are 1 energy, 1 food, 2 smithore, RANDOM tite
Mountain two are 1 energy, 1 food, 3 smithore, RANDOM tite
Mountain three are 1 energy, 1 food, 4 smithore, RANDOM tite

If YOU assayed the plot it will tell how much tite it will produce on outfitting.  If someone else did it, it won't.  You won't know until it starts producing.  It makes perfect sense to me why they did that.  It's the logical thing to do.  The game outside of random events is very logical.

[Rhodan]

In his rush to rebut my point about the question marks appearing, Chuckie has forged the central thesis of his opposition. If one reads what I wrote I did not question why the question mark always appeared, but only in those instances where one did know the amount of tite available based upon previous assays. The answer benevolently provided by Chuckie 'Because you don't know what it's supposed to produce until it starts producing'. The possibility of some doubt in players minds was purposefully left in the game to provide a thin edge to exploit for observant players.

Correct!! And that element still remains despite using a tite tracker or not. Are you observant enough to mark assays mentally, on paper or via tite tracker program? or you don't pay attention and fail to keep track of assays some way some how and cry CHEAT! when everyone but you gets the HIGH STITE

[Chuckie Chuck]

Even using the tite tracker, I often miss the plots I want.  Sometimes I try to predict the patterns after one or two assays and get it wrong and it takes me for ever to figure out in the mean time most the other players get the tite plots.  I consider it a tool because when I'm tired, I can't remember from one round to the next.  Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't.  It's a nice tool.

A comment was made about the stock market, just using info at hand.  Not entirely true.  There are market predictions.  (Assay's if you will) and many of those based on just watching the patterns and trends through out an extended period of time and I'm sure stock brokers don't just tuck them in memory, they record them, write them down, make decisions about what stocks they are interested in trading and when probably sometimes, weeks in advance.  Yeah, on the "Auction Floor" it's a mad house, but you see them running around with fan folds of tractor paper and pencils in hand as they bid and sell.  That's what the tite tracker is.  The fanfold of paper and pencil.