Land Grant alternative proposal

[vaylen]

One of the problems I've always had with the original Land Grant method is if your #1 choice is at the bottom right, you are already screwed out of any #2 choice.

Why not have the Land Grant work like the Oklahoma Land Rush?

Definition: Land Run (sometimes "land rush" ) usually refers to a historical event in which previously-restricted land of the United States was opened for homesteading on a first arrival basis.

The way the Land Rush would work is all four players' characters would be standing in the Base. It would be the full colony view, so their characters would be the small versions.  Then the bell would sound and all of the players would run out from the Base towards the land they want to claim.  When they get there they hit their button and the land turns their color.  The players in last place run a little faster and the players in first place run a little slower.

This would be pretty easy to implement and I bet it would be more fun than the original method (forgive me, Ozark Gods, but as we now see with the new simultaneous selling, there WERE some things you didn't get perfect in our beloved 1983 classic).

Thoughts?

[Big Head Zach]

This actually sounds like an amusing change, and it ensures the players in last place get the plots they want, and removes the whole "if the one you want is last on the screen you get screwed if you're swooped" issue.

Gets my vote, at least as a variant to code in down the line.

[GabrielPope]

One of the problems I've always had with the original Land Grant method is if your #1 choice is at the bottom right, you are already screwed out of any #2 choice.

Well... yeah. That's why you don't make the bottom right your #1 choice unless you see everyone else grab other plots early on. Having to prioritize based on selection order adds a lot of depth to what would otherwise be a very bland part of the game.

As a variant, running around on the map to tag lands sounds fun and meshes with existing gameplay, but for an online game that must put up with lag I'd be a bit wary of introducing a land grant method that relies more on action reflexes.

[vaylen]

You seem to think planning around a game's limitation is preferable to questioning whether the limitation is vital to the game in the first place.  I think it's not. I think when Dan & the boys decided on how to make a land grant, the idea of the cursor starting at the top left and scrolling across and down seemed like a straight-forward way to do it.  I just think my "land rush" idea is a little better.

Well... yeah. That's why you don't make the bottom right your #1 choice unless you see everyone else grab other plots early on. Having to prioritize based on selection order adds a lot of depth to what would otherwise be a very bland part of the game.

As a variant, running around on the map to tag lands sounds fun and meshes with existing gameplay, but for an online game that must put up with lag I'd be a bit wary of introducing a land grant method that relies more on action reflexes.

[data2008]

Then the bell would sound and all of the players would run out from the Base towards the land they want to claim.

Without going into it too much, we actually incorporated several variants of exactly this kind of land rush in our prototype and only days before the release of 1.0 reverted back to the original one.

Having to prioritize based on selection order adds a lot of depth to what would otherwise be a very bland part of the game.

While any rush style sounds like fun in theory, exactly this reason is part of the excitement of the slot machine approach... maybe the rush needs a more interesting playmechanic or twist to add some suspense...

[GabrielPope]

You seem to think planning around a game's limitation is preferable to questioning whether the limitation is vital to the game in the first place.  I think it's not.

You seem to think that any game element that inconveniences you is merely a bug or limitation. I think it's not.

[Jaradakar]

@Data2008,  Thank you very much for the insight!

@Vaylen, It's an interesting idea to be sure.  I'm not a fan of having 3rd & 4th players just automatically moving faster.  I'd be more in favor that if they push there button to gain a land, they would gain preference over 1st and 2nd but all players would move at the same speed.

@GabrielPope, I for the most part agree with you. The current limitations add strategy as to which plots you want to go for.  For example if the other 3 players pick early it's pretty easy to have your choice of any of the bottom right hand corner -- unless you miss click or wait too long.

Overall, in some ways I wish the Land Grant would move to an internet only version that would work like this:

1) Each player selects a plot of land they would like to acquire, this selection would be hidden from the other players.

1a)This selection could be done by each player simultaneous driving their colonist out to the location they'd like to take, only you'd only see your own colonist.

2) Once every player has chosen a plot, players that picked the same location would be compared in rank.

2a) Players of lower rank would win, players of higher rank would loose.

3) Players that lost would be informed that, "Another player has chosen that plot" and it would be revealed to them that location along with any other player with higher rank.

3a) Players that won, would be informed that they have gained a new plot (plot would highlight in said players color).

4) Loosing players would then have to select another plot of land.

5) Steps 1-4 would continue until all players have gained a plot of land.


This method would not work for hot seat play, which is why I noted that this is more of an internet only solution or perhaps LAN party where everyone has their own PC.

This selection process could be done much like Vaylen's idea of wide screen showing all plots and each player drives their colonist out to the location.  

The differences between my suggestion and his is that in my version you'd only see yourself not the other players and mine is more turn based/strategy Vs action oriented as you don't know and can not see where other players are going.

But things I like over this  proposal Vs the original?  It's impossible for someone to not get a new plot.  I think it's overly harsh that can currently happen.

[GabrielPope]

Overall, in some ways I wish the Land Grant would move to an internet only version that would work like this:

I'm all for looking to modernize the land grant process, and the sort of system you propose seems ideally suited to Internet play since it isn't adversely affected by latency. I think it would still be possible to include some of the same sense of positional prioritization as in the current system, though: suppose that if your initial claim fails, your next claim has to be further along in the grant order. This way you still get the strategic trade-off of going for a land in the upper left in order to maximize your flexibility if it fails, vs. trying to grab a more desireable piece of land in the lower right that will leave you in a poor position if it fails (although really, plains aren't terrible as long as you can get an adjacent plot going.) You do lose the ability to judge other players' priorities during the selection process, though, and I'm not sure how well this mechanic would work without that feature.

[vaylen]

Did all the players move at the same speed in your land rush variant?  Did things like mountains and the river bed slow them down?

I definitely think there are ways to spice it up while keeping it quick and giving a slight advantage to the players in last place.

Then the bell would sound and all of the players would run out from the Base towards the land they want to claim.

Without going into it too much, we actually incorporated several variants of exactly this kind of land rush in our prototype and only days before the release of 1.0 reverted back to the original one.

Having to prioritize based on selection order adds a lot of depth to what would otherwise be a very bland part of the game.

While any rush style sounds like fun in theory, exactly this reason is part of the excitement of the slot machine approach... maybe the rush needs a more interesting playmechanic or twist to add some suspense...

[Jaradakar]

Overall, in some ways I wish the Land Grant would move to an internet only version that would work like this:

I'm all for looking to modernize the land grant process, and the sort of system you propose seems ideally suited to Internet play since it isn't adversely affected by latency. I think it would still be possible to include some of the same sense of positional prioritization as in the current system, though: suppose that if your initial claim fails, your next claim has to be further along in the grant order. This way you still get the strategic trade-off of going for a land in the upper left in order to maximize your flexibility if it fails, vs. trying to grab a more desireable piece of land in the lower right that will leave you in a poor position if it fails (although really, plains aren't terrible as long as you can get an adjacent plot going.) You do lose the ability to judge other players' priorities during the selection process, though, and I'm not sure how well this mechanic would work without that feature.

Well in the current system, you really don't have any ability to judge other players priorities so the "Blind Grant" that I proposed is exactly the same.   The only thing in the current system is that you know is what others have picked then you know you're safe to pick something in the lower right.

It's an interesting idea you have to have it auto pick to the right in case of a failure. Doing so would be faster than having players re-pick new plots.  But you then bring up the question of what happens if you pick the bottom right most plot and fail?  I guess you could keep the current theme of "you don't get a plot" but personally I hate that aspect of the current land grant system and is something I'd want to change if I were going to redo the current system.

-Jara

PS: I guess you could always add a small improvement to the current system where if you miss obtaining a plot by the time the cursor leaves the screen a random plot would be assigned to you

[Jaradakar]

Did all the players move at the same speed in your land rush variant?  Did things like mountains and the river bed slow them down?

I definitely think there are ways to spice it up while keeping it quick and giving a slight advantage to the players in last place.

Then the bell would sound and all of the players would run out from the Base towards the land they want to claim.

Without going into it too much, we actually incorporated several variants of exactly this kind of land rush in our prototype and only days before the release of 1.0 reverted back to the original one.

Of course the "Land Rush" idea still relies on movement, and timing and it lets you *read* what other players are doing much more so than the current system.  I'd be a little worried that it would be easier to grief another player with that system (but I might just be worrying for nothing).  There is also the worry of latency...

But for fun  , lets go into more detail on that system and think about questions and ramifications of said system:

1) Where do players start?  Do they start on each of the 4 sides of the store?  

If they do, that means the two start in the river spaces would be slower or put a player at a disadvantage. So maybe North/South starting positions are reserved for 1st and 2nd place?  While East/West would be for 3rd and 4th?

1a) What do you do for the first land grand where no one is really ranked?  

Just randomly select who gets screwed?  I suppose you could also start players in random plot that contains no geographical feature or alternatively in the 4 corners (super spread out).

2) How much time do players have to get a plot?

Unlimited might sound nice, but waiting for someone to make up there mind could really slow the game down.  I'd be inclined to say there is a set time frame and then the land grant phase would end.  

Of course, if the whole affair is timed that means locations farther away from the store might be harder to obtain...

3) What happens when time runs out and players have not pushed a button?

Do they just not get a land?  That would keep in theme of the current version, but again I'd like to add a safety net.  Could give them what ever location they are over, assuming it's  not owned -- but that brings up the question of what happens if it is owned?  I think the fall back solution would be to randomly give them an unowned plot if the time ends and they have not pushed a button to claim a plot.

4) How much time should players have?  Should this time limit be based on something?  

In the current game when ever you have a time bar, it is based on your food.  Would it be better to have 4 timers and have the Land Grant time be limited also based on food on hand?  This could add more value to food...   But if you're behind it could mean you'll just get further behind as you fail to pick up a plot of land.  Yes, overall having the timer based on food is most likely a horrible idea.  

Anyway just some food for thought.

-Jara

[Jaradakar]

I also thought about using a mouse.

What if during this phase everyone just clicked on the plot they wanted with a mouse pointer?  If two people clicked on the same location rank would determine the outcome with lower ranked players having priority.

Positives
Would be very fast!  This phase would fly bye!


Negatives
Latency could be an issue.
You would have to teach how to use this new interface.
Could cause issues if the game was ever ported to the console systems.
Would need a cursor to show exactly which plot you are hover over.

I suspect this system would need to have a timer in case players were taking too long to pick. Hum...
 
Also if two players picked the same location, loser would get a chance to re-pick as long as time had not elapsed.

[data2008]

1) Where do players start?  Do they start on each of the 4 sides of the store?  

We have tested several playstyles here:
Make the players choose an exit based on their rank (last player choose first).
Make all players start in the colony and have each player start running with X seconds delay starting from last ranked player to first player.

1a) What do you do for the first land grand where no one is really ranked?  

For the first round, we would take the rank of the Hi-Score table... so a weak player first round would have a slight advantage (a players Hi-Score rank is determined by Games Won, Winning Ratio, and the date a player joined).

2) How much time do players have to get a plot?

We put a fixed time in it (in seperate phase mode like 15-30 seconds).

3) What happens when time runs out and players have not pushed a button?

no plot

4) How much time should players have?  Should this time limit be based on something?  

In one test-version, we even combined land rush and development to make it one parallel superphase... you could decide to go straight into the store and buy a mule first and then grab a plot and install the mule directly on it... or you could spent time to assay first and then grab the plot... food became much more valuable, because no food meant also no plot...

Anyway just some food for thought.

Keep the ideas coming  

[Jaradakar]

An interesting idea I also had... what if the time players had to pick a plot of land was based on all players food on hand.

So for example, all players have 4 food each then the shared time for land grant "rush" phase would be: 30s

But if 3 players had 3 food each (one short) and 1 player had no food the time would be: 10s

(Note, I'm just making numbers up -- I've not worked out a formula that would give the desired results).

Basically the game would look at all players and come up with a time limit based on how supplied with food the colony is.

[Jaradakar]

Thanks for the additional information data2008!

We have tested several playstyles here:
Make the players choose an exit based on their rank (last player choose first).
Make all players start in the colony and have each player start running with X seconds delay starting from last ranked player to first player.

Yeah choosing an exit based on rank, seems like it would take added time for not much benefit -- I think I'd prefer random but skewed in favor of rank (Mostly this is just for the speed advantage).

Starting in the store/colony would be another option but doing so would require players to memorize the map previously to know which exit they should run out of.  Not to mention it's mostly about the Pub and outfitting Mules.  What happens whey they try to purchase a Mule or go to the Pub?  Or what happens when one player leaves the store but others do not? 

Hence I think the cleanest would be to start all players out in the overall map (being small) and not allow anyone inside the store.

I think having individual delays would be frustrating to me personally -- I think it would be better to have it more like a race.  Just provide button advantage for lower ranked players (on cases where two players are near each other trying to get the same plot of land.

But I like the idea of having a global delay that counts down prior to the "land rush" race starting... say 5 sec count down.  This would let players find their location and formulate a plan of where they want to go, etc.

For the first round, we would take the rank of the Hi-Score table... so a weak player first round would have a slight advantage (a players Hi-Score rank is determined by Games Won, Winning Ratio, and the date a player joined).

Ah interesting, I like the use of metagame information of all previous games, very cool.

We put a fixed time in it (in seperate phase mode like 15-30 seconds).

Yeah that seems best.  Course it might be interesting if that time varied based on the total amount of food all players have (then again, it might not).

no plot

Yeah... still not a fan of that being an allowed outcome.  Big picture, who gets burned by this?  To me the answer is newer players. Do new players really need to have this pitfall to worry about?

In one test-version, we even combined land rush and development to make it one parallel superphase... you could decide to go straight into the store and buy a mule first and then grab a plot and install the mule directly on it... or you could spent time to assay first and then grab the plot... food became much more valuable, because no food meant also no plot...

Wow crazy idea to think about...

The initial down side of that method would be that turn order would matter a great deal as it would give you first pick on a new plot of land and seeing how unless their is a mule shortage the player in 1st would most of the time get the best location, so that feels wrong to me.

So personally I think I'd favor the multiple phases, as I think it keeps it cleaner.

Keep the ideas coming  

Will do  Thank you again for sharing some of your ideas/experiments!