Hosting Bot - Feedback and Suggestions

[Chauncey]

Yeah, thanks folks for trying to explain that with the log file, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Where do you find this file? I don't know what a shell or what tail-F is. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be clueless about what that means, and it really sucks that some people are viewing this and others are not. I think it's a HUGE advantage to know this information.

I like the sound of what Dynadan was saying about petitioning for it to be unavailable until game is over. *Also agree with almost all your comments regarding tools etc, Dan. (except that annoying wampus assay trick, but whatever ).   

[Chauncey]

*Want to make clear that I appreciate Main creating the hosting bot very much, and really quite well done - Sure hope you take any critisism's as constructive!

[Chuckie Chuck]

When you look at game stats on the web page (in hi scores) - There are two types of logs you can view...

At the top there is a chat log (a log of what was said during that game)

At the bottom end there is a java machine log for each computer that was involved in the game.
The machine log is created locally on your hard drive during each game and can be "tailed" so you can see the data as it is written in real time.  (I've never done this, but the new hosting bot does it and reports what is recorded in the game chat.  There are players here that do it.)

As for shell (before we had GUI os like Windows or MacOS, we used a command line oriented OS like Unix or MS-DOS or CP/M.)  A Shell emulates one of these command line OS from within the GUI OS.  It allows command line level control of certain functions and also allows the running of many older command line driven applications.

[Mainstream]

The bot program works by monitoring the log, so if you kill the log or make it only available at the end of the game, the bot hosting will not work.   It needs the log in order to determine when the game is started, completed, and to respond to commands.

Remember the goal is to make it fair to everyone when you are playing Mule not nessisarily hiding infomation that some could see and other cannot.

Dynadan:  I see your point on what you brought up, and as a purist agree 100%, but in practice, people are using tite and event trackers while they play.   
I however disagree with you on the Wampus / Survey technique.    I wouldn't classify it as an exploit, but more as a bug.    You cannot tell me that it was the intention of the developers to hide the survey message with the wampus catching.   And some could argue that if a player can do this, it gives them an unfair advantage over those who cannot.   Not saying I don't respect players that do this, infact I thought it was rather ingenious the first time I saw it done.   And don't get me wrong, I love watching players try and fail even more.    The lastassay command does not give anyone who was not paying attention any information other than the result of the survey, so if they are not paying attention, it will not give them coordinates of the survey.   Infact it was this technique that led me to using the log to determine what the last survey was, others who do not have the ability to see this are the ones that have the disadvantage. 

Although in the grand scheme of things, im sure you will agree the lastassay and event tracking features have little impact on gameplay, and serve to benefit all players.

The bot:auctions has a little more impact on gameplay as it allows players to determine wether or not they need to pay $60 more to block another player from getting a plot.   The $60 may seem marginal, but as we've seen games won with smaller margins.

There is reason to keep this command in, other than the fact that it still is available to everyone to see in the log regardless.   It allows players to change their strategy on buying lots.  If you knew that a 2 plots are up for auction, as a player you might decide to let the first plot go in hopes the second plot is in a better location than the first, So in the command changes the strategy not replaces it. 

I am not sure if there is any evidence that any of these commands have changed the outcome of any games,  but the bot:auctions is the one I have received the most feedback on, and I will make it disabled by default, and allow those who play to enable it by 2 votes.

I think Mops had the best argument for disabiling it by default, was the fact that people who are not familuar with the bot commands have a disadvantage, as players who know the commands can issue them when it suits them better.  In reality changing the auction announcement from displaying every round (as it used to) to only displaying it when requested, caused the functionality to be un-fair.


Thanks for the feedback,  I don't offend easily so all comments are constructive.    I've opened a seperate thread for comments and suggestions, that will notify me when there are posts.   I would like to get some more idea's for obscure records, as I think everyone enjoys these and they do make playing the game more entertaining, without distracting from gameplay.


New obscure records comming.

[Megamind] - Awarded to the player who wins the game with the fewest plots.
[Workhorse] - Awarded to the player who develops/converts the most plots in a round
[We All Suck] - Awarded to the 4 players who have the lowest colony score upon completing a full game (12 rounds)
[Synergy] - Awarded to the 4 players who have the highest colony score upon completing a full game (12 rounds)

[Gmanster64]

I rather like the bot:auctions command because in real life, when you go to an auction, you know how many things are for sale. In fact, you'd also know WHAT is for sale instead of it being random.

[dynadan]

@Mainstream...I understand your reasoning on the last assay subject.  While I don't think the developers put in the catch wumpus thing the second after you assayed, I think it was an accidental improvement to the game.  I also enjoy watching people (me included) fail at trying this.  I also didn't understand why everyone can't do this....It's not like it requires any special abilities....just the knowledge that it is possible and then trying it out.

I appreciate you explaining that you use the log to make the bot run.... How about if we could ask the developers to move the number of auctions onto the next round or after the auctions have taken place etc.  For me this isn't a hosting bot issue, but instead an issue of having the log have real time info that should not be available yet.  Just wanted your thoughts on the subject?  Would making this change have any effect on your hosting bot or how the game runs?  I never realized this info was available in the log info, and I think having it available whether thru the log file or the hosting bot command makes the game worse.  Auction gambits are one of the key elements to the game.

As far as the last assay and event tracker i concede that they do not make huge changes to the game, I was just commenting more on the purity of the game of mule, and what i would like to see in a perfect world.  To me having an auto host bot is well worth these changes.

So there are my thoughts....I still think we should try to get rid of the current auction info from the log.

I don't know what obscure records you have thought of so far, but figured i better try to contribute something positive if i am going to voice criticism.

[Happy Go Lucky]  Most good events in 1 game
[God Hates Me]  Most bad events in 1 game
[Curious Cat]  Most assays done by a player in 1 game
[Inquisitive]  Most assays in 1 turn
[Fleeced]  Most Crystite stolen in a single turn
[Pillaged]  Most Cystite stolen in a full game
[Plundered]  Most Crystite stolen from a colony in a single turn
[Ransacked] Most Crystite stolen from a colony in a game
[Hunter]  Most $ received from wumpus in a single game
[Parcel Party]  Most auctions in 1 game
[Tycoon]  Most pieces of land bought by 1 player in a game
[Merciless]  Largest margin of victory between 1st and 2nd
[Pitiful]  Largest margin of loss between 4th and 1st

[Chauncey]

I appreciate you explaining that you use the log to make the bot run.... How about if we could ask the developers to move the number of auctions onto the next round or after the auctions have taken place etc. 

Yes, what about this idea? I like this idea. 

[Chauncey]

That above was a quote from Dynadan. I dont know to use the quote thing properly...


Couldn't really figure out the log business, kinda gave up (maybe I just don't want to know) I see the chat log, and the individual logs. Don't see any "main" log. I guess you have to download all of them?

Maybe I'll revisit it later if I get the feeling that a lot of people are doing it.

[chris_PL]

I found a trick.. that WorkHorse record can be "cheated" when you switch on and on one thing to another.

Look at this game chat: http://www.planetmule.com/server/chats/chat_game_40905_user_20657.html

iso9001: 8 plots develop i 1 round?
C.T.C.P.: Are you CTCP?
chris_PL: i will beat this record.. have idea
Round 10 of 12
C.T.C.P.: oh you meant "in"
C.T.C.P.: funny
chris_PL:
iso9001: in
iso9001: hmm
mule4u2: ************* NEW OBSCURE RECORD *************
mule4u2: Record: WORKHORSE
mule4u2: WorkHorse - Most plots developed/converted in a Single Round
mule4u2: Old Record: C.T.C.P. (
mule4u2: New Record: iso9001 (18)
mule4u2: **********************************************
mule4u2: ************* NEW OBSCURE RECORD *************
mule4u2: Record: WORKHORSE
mule4u2: WorkHorse - Most plots developed/converted in a Single Round
mule4u2: Old Record: iso9001 (18)
mule4u2: New Record: chris_PL (88)
mule4u2: **********************************************
C.T.C.P.:
chris_PL: heh
iso9001: :!
chris_PL: new record



------------------
After that iso created more.... over 260

[Chuckie Chuck]

That above was a quote from Dynadan. I dont know to use the quote thing properly...


Couldn't really figure out the log business, kinda gave up (maybe I just don't want to know) I see the chat log, and the individual logs. Don't see any "main" log. I guess you have to download all of them?

Maybe I'll revisit it later if I get the feeling that a lot of people are doing it.

(The individual logs are copies of the log the bot uses (Specifiically the individual log that is made under the bots name at the bottom.)  Those individual logs are machine logs (carrying hardware information, a track all communication that go between the computers in the game to stay sync'd.))

[Mainstream]

@Chuckie, I have no issue with removing the last auction info from the log.  I have disabled the command in the bot and have not seen anyone vote to turn it on yet.

@Chris_pl I think I have fixed the bug on the workhorse award.  It now will count all the developments and subtract all of the undevelopments.

Thanks for pointing this out.


@everyone,  I'm having one more small problem with the boys, it appears they are not restarting all the time after a game ends, I am working on code.

Thanks for the feedback,

[chris_PL]

My new obscure record suggestion:

[Spoiler] = most spoiled units in round
[Utilizer] = most spoiled units in whole game
[Spiker]  = most sold units at highest value possible
[Lucky Gambler] = most sold units previously bought from another player and sold at higher price next rnd
[Loosy Gambler] = most sold units previously bought from another player and sold at lower price next rnd

[Chauncey]

@Chuckie, I have no issue with removing the last auction info from the log.  I have disabled the command in the bot and have not seen anyone vote to turn it on yet.

Yes, I appreciate this Mainstream. I think at this point we are inquiring about the possibilities of moving that data in the log, so no one can extract it in a roundabout way (Not talking about the hosting bot anymore, even though that is the thread). Hoping people will chime in enough where it may attract developers attention.

And in fact, if a fair amount of people are being quite the opportunists with this information, then well it almost seems like it SHOULD be easily accessed by a simple command. But even in that case, it would only be then fair, WITH the hosting bot, so I don't know.

[doktorbuzzo]

I agree with dynadan's objection to the overexposure of game history and upcoming events. If a player wants to record all observed game events (full disclosure: I manually chart everything and use the knowledge to my advantage) then that's their choice and their burden. The hosting robots should not act in any other capacity except to make games available, which I think we all agree is a Very Good Thing.

On the issue of running a tail -f on logfiles (or using a similar inspection method, for those running toy operating systems), I believe it's possible to use a fast ASCII obfuscation scheme like ROT-13 or some other fast character-replacement scheme to make logfiles illegible (in a practical sense) until the game's score is saved. This could even be done by making up a 1-to-1 "decoder ring" replacement code by using a hash of the of the game's start time on Irata. Doing so would make it impossible to generate a log-descrambler beforehand, particularly if the hash is properly salted before being rehashed to determine the random code pattern. (Well, it would make it impossible for me to generate one.)

Of course the ingenuity of the human mind and the instinctive drive to exploit any and all resources to obtain social advantage means no system will ever be 100% effective in preventing this type of "front-running" behavior (Hello, Wall Street!). But to me, that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try to make it more difficult to discover information before the game's intended disclosure.

I haven't played in many bot-hosted games, but I hope the bot:noauctions command is retained. I would also like to see a bot:noassays command to prevent the recall of assay results that are no longer displayed in the status area of the colony map. Any bot:no* commands should only require a single vote to prevent * information being disclosed by the bot. Of course, I'm content to play host and only join non-bot-host games if the community decides they wish to retain the loudmouth county recorder 

More importantly, if we accept that a new generation of players is a good thing (it is), shouldn't we also try to make sure they learn how to play the game without artificial advantages conferred by our game's infrastructure, innovations that don't conform to the original design by Bunten and Ozark Softscape?

Maybe I'm just a grumpy old M.U.L.E. but when the host robot blabs a game's event history, assay findings and upcoming plot auctions then this makes our new players complacent and lazy in their play and their planning. I make the extra effort to feed my brain with my hand-mapped and recorded diary of each game and I don't begrudge others their own chosen game tracking methods. But the game itself (in the guise of the host-bot) should stand silent and not divulge that which could have been readily observed. Players who know me know that if asked, I'll usually chat the answers to questions like, "Did pirates come yet?" and other event-realted inquiries.

Now you kids get off my lawn!

[Chuckie Chuck]

Inherent problem to your idea dok...

If the game terminates abnormally and the decoder doesn't get to run, you would not have a legible log to debug the cause for the crash.  (Now you might be able to send the scrambled log to admin for them to decode manually, since they would have to have a decoder if they do the scrambling.)