Last place descrepancies

[Oort]

Not sure if this has been discussed before. Sorry if it has. I have 2 problems I've noticed for last place.

The first is the beginning round land grab. As I understand it the lowest placed person gets preference on a plot choice. Last has preference over all. But many times I've lost plots to people above me because of some timing issue. It just doesn't seem to me that it should matter when you press the button so long as the indicator has not moved away from the plot. A couple people pointed out to me to press the button when the indicator is on still on plot just before the one you want and it turns gray. Ok, that's all fine and good, but the nitpicky side of me thinks that if the indicator hasn't left the plot yet then lower placed should still get preference.

I think my second problem might be a game bug, but perhaps its an inherent design? A couple times now bidding on a plot of land and when the timer ran out I lost the plot to a lower placed person even when my bid was ahead of theirs. I was literally ahead of the bidding the entire time, my icon flashing that I had the lead, and I kept the up arrow pressed the whole time, yet miraculously when the ending bell rings they get the plot. I could understand it if when the bell rings both players are exactly matched on bids, but not when one person is obviously ahead.

Oh, one other thing. I thought I'd read somewhere that you had to be in first place to lose a plot of land from an event. I've had it happen and seen it happen to others in second place quite a few times. Maybe I misremember reading it that way? Looking around to find where I read that but not seeing it.

[dynadan]

I think I have the answers to your questions, and I'm sure someone else will let me know if I am wrong.

On the land grab issue:  The mechanics of choosing land should probably be explained carefully in the FAQ or somewhere commonly read.  I remember playing 50 games before a veteran player finally pointed out why i never got the plot i wanted.  ALWAYS hold down your button when choosing a plot.  This must be done when the frame changes color on the land before the one you actually want.  In the instant you see the plot has been chosen (before you can even see which color won the plot) let go of your button.  This will keep you from accidentally choosing the next plot instead if you did not get the plot you wanted.  As a back-up only you have a fraction of a second to choose a plot that has not been selected in the "pre-selection" phase.  Because of the latency issues I don't think the developers can make this part last to first priority.  The developers have busted their butts to get this system finally working perfect IMHO and once you get used to it I doubt you will have a problem.

Land Auctions:  This is a latency issue, and again the developers have worked very hard to get to the point where we are now.  There have been quite a few threads addressing this issue, so if you want to know more do a little reading.  But the gist of it is....The graphical display is not accurate because of the lag inherent in playing a game over the internet.  The developers have got it working where this no longer gives the host (or person with lowest ping) an advantage.  Can't remember if they settled on random bidder or lowest ranked bidder.  If you held up the entire time you have done all you can do.  Don't get caught up with how it looks on your screen.  On everyone elses screen it shows them ahead of you.  They added to blinking with the last update to try and give the players the info ahead of time, but it is not very reliable.  The important thing to remember  is that what you see is not going to be exactly what you get.  So never hang out on the bottom line or just above someone.  They will be able to go up at the last second and get the winning bid before you have time to react (or to even see it).

The debate on the plot take away event (or free plot event)  still rages on.  I think you are misremembering seeing that it is only 1st place to lose a plot.  Although many of us feel that that is the way it should be.  Apparently the way it works now is how it worked on the original Atari version.

Anyway I hope that clears some stuff up

[Mt-Wampus]

   I am one of those guys who hates to see a plot awarded or taken away in the first 4 rounds while everybody is still moving up and down the standings and things are still pretty even and wide open. If it must be that a guy has a plot taken away early on i sure wish the game would remember that and give that player breaks later in the game if he has fallen back to 3rd or 4th. I have never seen a guy who gets a plot taken early on get awarded a plot later in the game. In all fairness i think they should have a greater chance than most to get awarded a plot later on if they have fallen back in the standings. I am sure there will be guys running on here and saying they have seen it happen many times(yawn). In 100 games at PlanetMule i have never seen it.

[Oort]

Thanks for the response. I suspected it had something to do with game latency, but was really hoping it was something the programmers could address. I was told about pressing during the 'gray phase' of the plot indicator, but its still frustrating to see a plot go to a higher placed player when you are struggling in last place.

I am new yet and still reading through older posts. It can be confusing because older issues talked about have been addressed.

On the lost/gain plot thing. I've both benefited and suffered because of it. My mind on that is its great if you gain a plot or see an advisory lose one and it sucks when you lose a plot or see someone else get one. Just another element of randomness in the game. I guess my biggest aversion to it is that its effect early in the game can dramatically effect the end game. A gain or loss early on can really be an advantage or a handicap.

[piete]

Mt-Wampus, I think you are confusing two things here: fairness and Mule

[Mt-Wampus]

Mt-Wampus, I think you are confusing two things here: fairness and Mule

    I dont have a problem with ANY random event besides the lose/award a plot event when it comes early! Everybody posts a comment during a game when a guy loses a plot in like the 2nd round already. We are all aware of how insane that is. How punishing it is that early when there's really no real difference between 1st and last that early on. I love mule and will play it no matter how the rules are but i sure wish that lose/award a plot event could come later on in the game after the pack has established itself. No problem with luck having a influence but it shouldnt decide games in my humble opinion. I have seen guys lose a plot early and never really recover even with a solid gameplan and execution. Have also seen guys get jumpstarted early on by getting awarded a plot and never looking back.

[dynadan]

@ Oort.....The programmers have addressed the issue and if you choose your land like i outlined above, you should get the land if you are in a lower place.  Pretty much all latency issues are gone now except you must be aware that during the land auction the graphics just lag a little behind the real information.

@ Mt-Wampus ......Couldn't agree with you more.  And I think Everyone who plays the game agrees except for Piete, and C64Nostalgia.  But unfortunately 2 out of 2000 is enough of a majority to keep the status quo.  So we will just have to bide our time until mule 2 is finished, and the player base switches to a more fair and better version.

[C64 nostalgia]

@ Mt-Wampus ......Couldn't agree with you more.  And I think Everyone who plays the game agrees except for Piete, and C64Nostalgia.  But unfortunately 2 out of 2000 is enough of a majority to keep the status quo.

lol... I would gladly trade my support for early round land lose/award for a pool of 2,000 active repeat players who don't bail and know a little bit more than the basics... Wouldn't it be great? 2,000 separate players all playing during the course of one day. Imagine all the games! Well dynadan, we can always dream.

Piete and I are purists. We have thousands that love M.U.L.E. in its original form. You could be a part of us and the cool kids, too. There is no reason to be jealous.

[dynadan]

ok ok 2000 may have been a pipe dream, although of the 17k registered players i am sure we have lost at least some of them to the lose plot early event.   200 to 2 is probably more accurate.  (At least for the hardcore play regularly players) I'm sorry to single you guys out, I just haven't seen anyone else who thinks plot take away in the 2nd round is a good idea.  Nor have I seen a compelling argument for why having a blatantly unfair and random event that makes someone sit there knowing they are going to lose for the next 90 minutes is a good idea or good for the game.

I know that playing the original if someone got a plot taken away in the 1st 3 rounds we would just restart the game.  It was a flaw in the game back then, and its a flaw in the game now.

[C64 nostalgia]

ok ok 2000 may have been a pipe dream, although of the 17k registered players i am sure we have lost at least some of them to the lose plot early event.   200 to 2 is probably more accurate.  (At least for the hardcore play regularly players) I'm sorry to single you guys out, I just haven't seen anyone else who thinks plot take away in the 2nd round is a good idea.  Nor have I seen a compelling argument for why having a blatantly unfair and random event that makes someone sit there knowing they are going to lose for the next 90 minutes is a good idea or good for the game.

I know that playing the original if someone got a plot taken away in the 1st 3 rounds we would just restart the game.  It was a flaw in the game back then, and its a flaw in the game now.

I don't mind getting singled out at all. I thought it was touching and funny.

Unfortunately, I'd be very surprised if we have 200 "hardcore" players that play more than 4 games a week.

Compelling: I've seen people (plural) win after a first round plot loss. The interesting thing about people thinking this is a fatal event is about the way we play and feel, not about the game itself. If having the most land is virtually the only way to win a game, we clearly need new strategies. I truly believe land is awesome. However, people without the most property regularly win. First round plot loss is more psychologically damaging than anything else. Like you said with restarting your original games, your player effectively gave up.

The creators of M.U.L.E. could have easily changed early round plot loss during the Atari to C-64 port, but they didn't... So, the perceived flaw lies with us (or the changes Planet MULE made).

[leahcim99]

Well stated Mr. Nostalgia.

[Death_Mule17]

  @everyone: YES! to piete and c64 nostalgia you listen! I mean what am i reading here?? Sounds like spoiled little boys ...THIS IS PLANET M.U.L.E, Where theres good luck and theres bad luck/deal with it. Your all lucky you cant lose a plot on the 1st rd like in the O.G MULE. And if you think losing a plot 2nd rd means its over for you the rest of the game...i say your comeback skills suck and this game is not for you, imo mule is alot more fun when you got to work for that win. Can we just end this thread??
 

an ill join "the cool kids" club

ps.(3/2000)

[Oort]

Can we just end this thread??

I thought it had ended ... until you posted again.

I've always wondered why people say something like that. As a newer player on the field I find discussions like this interesting. If I didn't find it interesting then, well, I wouldn't read it. It's not like its a hardship to my existence if it continues and I don't find it interesting enough to read.

[dynadan]

I have spent the last couple of days researching exactly how the programmers felt about the game of M.U.L.E., and I have learned quite a few things i didn't know before.  At this point i realize that the battle lines have been drawn, and there is no way we are going to convince each other to change our opinions.  But here I go anyway.

First off, to restate the arguments for keeping the plot take away event in the game early :

1. Life isn't fair
2. The programmers could have changed it between the atari and c64 version if they didn't like it.
3. I have seen someone make a comeback after seeing it happen in round 2.
4. The original game of Mule was perfect and the programmers walk on water.

so here are my counter arguments:

1. Life isn't fair but the games we play should be.  We play games to either escape from real life or because we are not stimulated enough in real life.  Either way we play games because it is decidedly not like real life.
    Here is an interesting article on The Importance of Play written by Dani Bunten http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/biz/whyplay.htm

2. Both versions of the game were released the same year very close to each other.  And because they were both written in different programming languages there was simply no time they could have gotten input from their customers in time to make any changes.  In fact they tried to make the same version but it still had many changes that were different between the atari and c64 versions due to programming differences.

3. Yes it is possible to still win after having a plot taken away early.  A lot of us could still win losing our 1st 3 plots if we were playing against beginners.  However against opponents of equal skill it lowers your odds of winning considerably.  In the first couple of turns players have very little control on rankings.  Luck on production, and who started the game in which position and thus could buy land for $972 and drop to last seem to be the driving force on who is in what place the 1st 3 rounds.  These events just seem to work opposite of how the other events work.  Events early in the game award/steal less money than events near the end of the game.  Land however, is much more valuable early than it is late in the game.  So maybe we should propose losing 3 plots of land or gaining 3 plots of land if it happens near the end of the game to even it up with how the other events work?

4. I think the programmers would be the first people to admit that they were not perfect.  (reading about Dan Bunten's quest to become Danielle Bunten was very eye opening) But they did discover the importance of play testers to development teams.  We are the best Mule players to ever have lived.  As a community we have played the game more than anyone else.  I think we would be honoring the programmers by doing our best (as continuing play testers) to improve upon their creation.  I think they would be sad to see the argument that the game was "perfect" as the reason for not discussing how it would improve/unimprove the game by making these slight changes.
   "This was the game that taught me the value of play-testing where you watch and talk to real people about the game while it's under development. After all, games are a form of communication that can only be confirmed by checking whether it works against an audience. "       Excerpt from Dani Bunten's Memoirs.


Let's take an unbiased poll and see what the community thinks.

[C64 nostalgia]

dynadan, I really like your above post. Could you post a new thread with it. I'd like to reply, but I realized how off-topic we had gone from the original post of this thread.