what's still missing from the original

[C64 nostalgia]

YES! I knew that they did that.  I just knew it happened to me back when I was a kid playing :-)  thanks for confirming it.

FWIW: I consulted my much older (blessed with an excellent memory) brother (one of my core opponents when I played as a kid on the C64). He remembered the pirates coming last round, too. But he adds, it was rare.

[mikman]

YES! I knew that they did that.  I just knew it happened to me back when I was a kid playing :-)  thanks for confirming it.

FWIW: I consulted my much older (blessed with an excellent memory) brother (one of my core opponents when I played as a kid on the C64). He remembered the pirates coming last round, too. But he adds, it was rare.

Too bad these guys don't have the source code, then we would know 100%.  I wonder if there were minor version changes floating around... possibly small variations in the different production runs. I wonder how many copies of mule for the C-64 sold?

[Blitzen]

Sorry his memory is either wrong or he was playing another version of the game. Don't know how many sold but we still have one...

For more evidence, checkout this page from some real fanatics:

http://www.smithore.com/eventstats.php

They don't even list a column for round 12 events of this kind for either atari or c64 (I guess they have moved platforms at some point). This is in keeping with Kroah's decompilation, on the last round the event is the colony ship. See my earlier reply for that iyl.

[Rhodan]

After playing a few games of the original atari mule via emulator I have come up with these major differences

Land Auctions

 First player to reach the minimum bid flashes(indicating he will win) if no one out bids.                       
  Need further testing to determine how it picks who flashes when all players reach bid line first.

 Starting bid rises with the maximum bid allowing players to back out of bidding.

 Because of slower player movement max price hike of about 1k is possible
  Result you didn't see high plot prices until late in the game after several auctions have occurred

 Auctions can happen on the first round.

Player selling land

 Seller is at the top and buyers at the bottom

 Seller controls the price up or down of his plot in real time as the timer runs.
  High bid gets the plot unless seller hikes it beyond any ones range.

Wampus

Appears once each players turn and every round thru 12. Players must touch it while it is visible without pressing the button to catch it. Can appear on player's plots.  Far more random appearing once to 3 times on the same mountain before moving. Result, much harder to catch them planetmule's version.

Store
No top or bottom exit to the store.

Auctions

Movement speed is much slower resulting in smaller price increase then planetmule's version


Events

Individual player events can occur first round including plot loss.


My thoughts on these differences

Land auction buying

Restore the price increase and minimum bid line to match the atari without changing the players movement speed or timer by decreasing the numerical increase from $4 steps to 3, 2 or 1. 
For example you can decrease it to $1 per step and have a almost perfect match to the original.
Designating the first player that reaches the bid line by flashing will not work due to inherent internet lag and hosting advantage.
So I suggest the lowest rank player wins any ties when timer runs out.
Bring back land auctions to turn one

Land auction by player

Make it just like the original!!!

Wampus

Make it just like the original!!!
 

Store exits

Keep it with the bottom and top exits.
This change increased the dynamics and choices during development adding to the game.


 Events

Bring them back to round one like the original.

[Blitzen]

Rhodan I approve and agree with almost everything in your list, awesome job.

I would like to add that the Wampus could sometimes completely screw a guy by moving a lot and / or staying on the top most mountains where he could not be caught.  He was a dot and the hit box to catch him was 4 dots big forming a square about the knee height of the pc sprites.

I do disagree on the suggestion for the lowest rank to always get the plot, it has to be random for reasons I have stated before, but let me reiterate a little.  A plot sold on turn one, who gets it - the guy in last?  When everyone has ~4k on hand and the price starts at 1k who gets it - the guy in last?  Its the guy in last every time, unless the price or his wallet reaches a point where he can't afford it.  You are changing mechanics again, or the results of them at least...

You quote host advantage and internet latency as impossible problems in emulating the existing system online.

But since the game is now centrally hosted I don't see the first point at all.

As to your second point I would expect it is possible with a very lean client or client service, on a clean machine, to communicate fast enough, and reliably enough to fool most people into thinking everyone is in perfect sync... any ping above 300 ms is going to ruin a shooter game, most people can get <150 ms and a bunch can get ~10.  So you have to design the clients to sync on a real time clock and allow for start and stops that at least meet the maximum ping you expect to support.  It might sound hard but its probably pretty easy and I think its the only way to do it right.

Simpler solution?  How about you assume everyone is going to start running up to buy on a land auction it wouldn't be the end of the world would it?  Until they press down they are going up, in "sync" making the first one there random.

I prefer the real time sync'd clients... it would be awesome if the clients could synchronize based on each others maximums + a safety margin for their group latency, and not be a static guess.  It would also vastly improve all the different auctions real time interactions with other players.  Might even form a good base for version II and some damn good features I have heard around here like simultaneous development for one thing.

Spectators should be of no consequence to player latency and are allowed to even be completely out of sync.

The server and its connections on the hand have got to be sweet.  On that note, I did mention monthly fees...  I know 4 guys who would become card carrying members on day 1.  Guaranteed.

 

[C64 nostalgia]

I wanted to do a little consolidation of old posts from this thread. I chopped them up in an effort to summarize what hadn't been discussed in Rhodan and Blitzen's last posts. I wish this could have been more definitive, but this is what I rounded up...

- players start with only 2 units of energy
- ALL global events round 1
- store mule building capacity (all available smithore to fill the store)
- radiation and pest attack also possible to happen to 2nd position (I don't have any empirical evidence that this would be the case at the moment, although somebody commented the contrary)
- less available time/slower player movement balance with original (will also correct the complained land auction behaviour)

- three high crystite deposits. (as opposed to four)

- food and energy requirements in the 12th round. To have enough food in the 12th round meant that you needed 1 unit of food for each plot. Energy was needed at a rate equivalent to the number of non-energy producing plots. Believe it or not, this changes late game strategy a lot.

My general sense is the pricing algorithm is not quite right.

For example, in the original, Food and Energy are less sensitive to actual production in the current round and priced more based on demand/production in the previous round.  In this version, producing for food and energy drastically cuts down the store price and these commodities are rarely useful.

Similarly, Smithore pricing is out of balance.  At least to me, C64 version's smithore was often the LEAST valuable commodity, providing few price swings but consistent returns.  The increase of Smithore's value and massive price swings in this version diminishes that of Crystite specifically, and food/energy generally.

Whereas food/energy are very sensitive to supply/demand, crystite is completely insensitive to it in the old version (oscillating randomly although often depressed in a weak economy where other commodities are high in price), and smithore was sensitive but in a generally narrow range of price, often not topping $64 and certainly not getting to $230.  Food and energy were the ones that could often fetch $200+ prices and were slower to come down in price, allowing some attempt by suppliers to enter these markets and net a solid profit.

[Blitzen]

I could pick over small details in the current version ad naseum... most of what you have quoted as said was true to the original but far from all it...

That's why I would prefer to see a decompilation of the slightly improved original c64 version (over the atari 800) used to simply clone the original in every aspect.  I would gladly accept one based off Kroah's atari 800 version barring that.

With the c64 version I would look forward to only really needing the following bug discussions:

- the bug on plot auctions when you are "first" and you hold up even when you can't run the bid up anymore... and you will win so long as you keep holding up!
- the bug which causes the Wampus to be uncatchable at the top of the map
- the bug which lets you set the price of crystite in the 12th development
- the bug where you place a mining mule in a river plot and then add a food mule (hiding the other mule who disappears after the round)

And the following subtle tweaks

- the fact that win/lose a plot in turns < 4 is extreme
- the fact that collusion is way too open to abuse online
- mountains in the two plots adjacent to the store suck harry nut sacks


But since it is nice to have some consolidation... For the record the things I disagree with that you quoted are:

- 12th turn... "you needed 1 unit of food for each plot"
- smithore... "often not topping $64 and certainly not getting to $230"


Smithore actually went to 255 in many games we played, sometimes 3 times.

I do agree especially with food and energy prices dropping too quickly.

And also, energy "requirements"... there was a bonus to production if you had extra energy according to the manual, not sure where I read about this online anymore either.  Couldn't find a mention of it in Kroah's decompilation when I looked quickly.  I'll look some more later... but I might of been smokin'

Somewhere in the guides to plot auctions, initial value is said to be a function of the average price.  In the original it was the last price - 60 bucks when they sold and another one came up right away... also reading Kroah's the average price was based on the last round of land auctions and not for all land auctions since the beginning of the game... the guide makes it sound like the average is calc. from the beginning of the game and used to determine the start price for each and every plot to be sold at the land auction by the "colony".   The negative consequence here is that the land would have a cheaper opening bid in planetmule if not for the added difference in being able to run them up so quickly now.

Finally I just wanted to say that I know that when I read something I disagree with I will often post a reply if I have the time, if someone else posts a reply and I agree with it I might not even reply... considering the matter to be "handled."  So even though its not in my nature to post my approvals I will try to do it more often...

[piete]

- the bug on plot auctions when you are "first" and you hold up even when you can't run the bid up anymore... and you will win so long as you keep holding up!

Is this a bug or feature? After all, you are spending all your money (mod 4), and it exists in both versions.

- the bug which causes the Wampus to be uncatchable at the top of the map

Agreed. Doesn't ruin the game though, wampus is still a lot harder to catch than on Planetmule.

- the bug where you place a mining mule in a river plot and then add a food mule (hiding the other mule who disappears after the round)

[Rhodan]

I could pick over small details in the current version ad naseum... most of what you have quoted as said was true to the original but far from all it...

That's why I would prefer to see a decompilation of the slightly improved original c64 version (over the atari 800) used to simply clone the original in every aspect.  I would gladly accept one based off Kroah's atari 800 version barring that.

With the c64 version I would look forward to only really needing the following bug discussions:

- the bug on plot auctions when you are "first" and you hold up even when you can't run the bid up anymore... and you will win so long as you keep holding up!
- the bug which causes the Wampus to be uncatchable at the top of the map
- the bug which lets you set the price of crystite in the 12th development
- the bug where you place a mining mule in a river plot and then add a food mule (hiding the other mule who disappears after the round)

And the following subtle tweaks

- the fact that win/lose a plot in turns < 4 is extreme
- the fact that collusion is way too open to abuse online
- mountains in the two plots adjacent to the store suck harry nut sacks


But since it is nice to have some consolidation... For the record the things I disagree with that you quoted are:

- 12th turn... "you needed 1 unit of food for each plot"
- smithore... "often not topping $64 and certainly not getting to $230"


Smithore actually went to 255 in many games we played, sometimes 3 times.

I do agree especially with food and energy prices dropping too quickly.

Its debatable if the C64 is improved over the original atari version.

I knew about all the bugs except setting the price of stite in the 12th and the mining mule on the river.

I do agree that food and energy pricing doesn't match the original and i miss the colony has a shortage of food and energy messages.
Please fix the pricing of food and energy in the last rounds. Energy can be to high when there is no colony shortage and food to low when there is a shortage. I dont recall this happening in the originals

[Blitzen]

@Piete I agree those original flaws are all up for debate in a proper remake

@Rhodan I agree the current goods pricing algorithm is a poor emulation, how the store determines prices has changed

And about the mining mule in the river, its been a while since I tried it.  I'll double check it on an original sometime too and post a proper report on tripping the bug.  Too bad I don't have room to keep a c64 setup.  What I really need to do is invest in one two of these too (why buy one? I bet I could even keep 3 without spoilage):

Commodore 64/128 rca audio/video monitor cable -- 5$ on ebay

All I got is the old style chroma cables and the pos rca rf boxes.  If I could toss the old monitor it will save some room and I can get it setup to stay!

[dynadan]

There is one thing I haven't seen anyone mention.  The turn timer on the c64 version used to run faster when you moved at an angle vs. in straight lines.  I recall this phenomena only happening inside the store.  I haven't noticed this happening at Planet Mule.  Can anyone confirm that A. this indeed happened in the original and B. that is doesn't happen here?

[Blitzen]

"Its debatable if the C64 is improved over the original atari version. "

You mean its debatable like as if you asked if we really exist right?  Please elaborate, what's the debate!?
There is a record of either the creator or one of his 3 coworkers, stating that with the c64 they had a little more room for code and that they had plenty of time to improve it... since it had been a success on the Atari but they thought it could be even better and hence thought it would also make it more successful.


dynadan you are right to point out the diagonal movement "thing" - I know they said something about that in the manual... however they also imply the different species will have varying abilities but they do not appear to imo.  Moving in a diagonal is faster since it is the shortest path so I wouldn't say they have exactly lied...

Time would slow down when people ran in an auction, and speed up when people stood around but I don't recall noticing it change during developments.  Speaking of which that would complicate the "solution" I have posted since total time is now somewhat variable.

Its presence in the auctions is a time saver and doesn't change the game if it is removed.  But I would love to see a better solution to end auctions early anyway, especially when you consider the late game auction blocking antics that did exist in the original (although to a far lesser extent).

[goblin]

"Its debatable if the C64 is improved over the original atari version. "

The Atari 800 is the defacto standard for MULE.  The c-64 did have an extra 16k or ram. But it only had two joystick ports not four like the 800. 

I subscribed to all the Atari Mags in the day and remember all the interviews with the programmers.
The atari 800 had better hardware for sprites and colors than the c64.  The c64 had better sound.

I remember Bunten wanting to add more maps.  I think MULE only had 128 (Maybe 256) map variations.  They were not randomly generated.   This means a really good player might figure out all 128 maps and then know were the high crystite was.  But only after enough plots were out to see the possible pattern.

So the c64 might have more maps (Not verified)

MULE is a 4 player game, anything less well is not really MULE.   The AI is so bad in the original and worse in this version  that playing with 3 ruines the game.   

I was in a group of 8 that loved the game and we tried 3 player (No AI) etc.  And it just did not work.  If there were only 3 people we would rather find the 4th vs playing at all.   

I'll have to check out this Oct 5th 2010 release.  The previous version was so unlike the original I stopped playing.

maybe this latest patch fixes some things.