Planet M.U.L.E.

Would this be called a bug, exploit, loophole? I really don't know, and I'm not sure what can be done about it, other than limiting the number of mule.exe's that can be running to only 1 application.  Worth a bit of a discussion I think...

I was able to start multiple sessions of the mule.exe and start a tournament round and have both my sessions join.  Effectively I could play against myself and 2 AI players.

Here is the game (which I abandoned after the first round).

http://www.planetmule.com/hi-score-game/game?game_id=13536

I would consider that a loophole, or an exploit that is created by a bug.  IMO if 2 or more players from the same IP are connected to the server then none of them should be allowed to join a tournament game.

People playing on a router should be able to play games. Also people have even talked about multiple people playing from the same computer. I think those should be considered.

any more opinions on closing that via IP or leave that open?

I think to start, it might be smart to allow only one login per account at a time.  This won't stop a user from logging in more than once from the same ip with different accounts, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

At the very least you should be able to play from a router.

2 (or more) people from the same IP (even with different logins) could very well be the same person on multiple computers, or be multiple players in the same physical room collaborating against other players that may not have the advantage of being face-to-face.  It would be easier for those people to collaborate their way to higher ranks.  I am not saying that we should stop people on the same IP from playing the game.  They just shouldnt be able to play a RANKED game.

We will make people aware that two players use the same IP in a game with the next release,
so its at least another step in the direction before completely forbid this for tourneys.

I personally do not play for ranks. I play only for fun.  However, the rankings have no credibility to me without this safeguard.

IP-based restrictions should not be enforced in any way. Most ISPs outside of the US give the same IP address to hundreds or thousands of end-users in different premises, in much the same way as anyone playing at work in a large corporate network will have the same address as his fellow co-workers.

D.

I agree with this.  You use some type of cookie or even a MAC address to limit the connection to 1 per computer, but I like the ability to play with people in the same household or workplace.  We the rankings moved to an ELO type ranking system like I recommended here:
http://www.planetmule.com/forum?topic=554.msg2591#new
this wouldn't make as big of deal in the rankings.

I think people are going to be able to manipulate almost any ranking system and there should be way in which this is controlled as best possible, but this is not the answer IMHO.

Without giving a full blown lesson in TCP/IP, let me just simply say that this is not true.  If multiple users are connecting from the same IP they are in the same geographical location (i.e. same house or building).  They should not be allowed to play ranked games, since there is no way to tell whether or not they are even in the same room, in which case they could easily be the same person playing solo from two different computers in order to achieve higher rank.   I am not saying that they should not be allowed to play.  They just shouldnt be ranked.


Not true either.  In addition to the ELO system, ASOBRAIN specifically prohibits users from the same IP address from joining a ranked game.  Rankings would have no credibility otherwise.  See Subject "Recent update (Sept 30) in the Faq section for confirmation.

Again, this is only valid in US households.

If you're in a corporate network with a VPS, two employees from NYC and LA can end up with the same IP address. I've seen it happen. I've actually sold this, at one point.

As for ISPs, some in Europe give the same IP address to an entire neighborhoods. It's even more pronounced in Asia, where ISPs have even less IP addresses to distribute than we do.

TCP/IP is not a US technology. It's how networks communicate over the internet in every country, even in Europe and Asia.


I'll give you this. Users on a corporate network can be located in different locations and use the same gateway on a virtual network.  However, these employees shouldn't be playing a ranked game since we have no way of knowing whether they are the same person or in the same room or across the country.  They should be unranked (and probably fired for playing MULE on company time).


I've never heard of an ISP giving out a single IP address to an entire neighborhood, and I've been a network engineer for 25 years.  As far as I'm concerned it's false unless someone can show me credible documentation of such.  Even if it were true, IMO these people should still not be allowed to play ranked games. 


All I am saying is that the games shouldn't be RANKED if the players are from the same IP.   I am not saying they shouldn't be able to play. 

True or false: If users from the same IP are able to play ranked games, can or can you not play from 2 laptops side by side and work your way to rank 1 easily?  True.  Therefore, the ranks have no credibility without some safeguard.  The easiest one to implement is the IP based restriction.

I sincerely don't mean to be anal, but TCP/IP as we know it descends from technologies used on the Arpanet, a 100% US technology. Best I'm aware, IANA is still US-based; it's still largely influenced by the US gov in spite of RIRs; and the indirect oversight of the US gov in way IP addresses are allocated is still a source of tension with quite a few countries during WTO negotiations.

Tease left aside, I think that you're misjudging how scarce IP addresses can be outside of the US. You work around the scarcity by NAT'ing the daylights out of your customers. I haven't worked in a telco in the past 5 years, but I sincerely doubt that things have changed much since.


I'm not even sure I'd agree to that... What's wrong if friends and I decide to toss in a Mule party while sharing a pizza?


... but a much better and reliable one to implement is a MAC-address based restriction. *That* is unique.

D.

I will repeat myself for the third time, and will continue to repeat myself for as long as you refuse to differentiate my statement.  My suggestion does not prevent you from having your MULE party.  It just prevents the results of it from being ranked on the master server against other legitimate players who haven't selectively picked their partners.  Have your MULE party and give out cookies to the winner.  I don't know you well enough to believe you that you aren't playing from two laptops simply for the purpose of cheating your way to rank #1.  If the world was based on trust, there would be no laws.


The issue isn't whether or not your computer is unique.  The issue is whether YOU are unique.  MAC address poses the same problem: You can still play from 2 computers sitting right next to each other... cheating your way to the top rank.

Many gaming sites on the net have used a restricted IP safeguard to prevent cheating in the ranks.  I've never heard of anyone complaining about having the same IP as everyone else in their neighborhood.  I'm willing to bet that this web site never gets that complaint either.  With regard to people playing from a corporate network, shame on them for doing it in the first place.  The needs of the many (people with individual IP addresses playing in real competition) outweigh the needs of the one (the guy who wants to host a ranked mule party or play from work because hes bored).

Rather than continuing to justify why people should be allowed to cheat why don't you try suggesting a way to safeguard that works as an alternative to the IP restriction.  This is about scoring.  If you are just playing for fun, then there is no need to be worried about an IP restriction.

Yeah, but... Fast forward in a few years, and picture a Mule club that gains momentum on a university campus. In this case, having multiple players playing against each other in as many whereabouts, all behind the same IP, becomes a certainty. That alone should rule out restrictions based on IP addresses.

Plus, no amount of safe-guards will ever prevent two friends from taking turns at giving each other a massive beating.

Seriously, if the concern is about users who cheat for rank, fix the ranking system instead. To do that, consider Go as a source of inspiration, rather than the hopelessly broken ranking algorithms that are used in online gaming communities.

Go ranks have been around for almost 2,000 years, so you'd be hard pressed to find anything that is more tried and tested. They're not about Joe is 1st, Jane is 2nd; rather, they're about Joe is 2-dan, Jane is 1-dan. Joe's Go rank basically asserts the probability that he'll beat Jane in an even game.

On the lower-end (kyu), Go ranks are mostly self-assessed. On the higher-end (dan), the consistency of the outcome in games vs varied opponents of similar (i.e. dan) rank is what counts.

In other words, if you're beating 1-dan players 50% of the time, you're 1-dan; if you're beating 1-dan players 80% of the time, you're 2-dan. By contrast, if you're beating self-assessed 1-kyu players 80% of the time, the best you can do is self-assess that you're probably 1-dan: you'll need to play confirmed dan players in order to confirm your own 1-dan rank.

Note that the Go ranking system kills cheating at its inception, too. No amount of trampling phony users with a kyu rank will let you cheat your way to a 1-dan rank. And if you take the time to grow enough phony users to 1-dan rank in order to artificially boost yourself to higher dan ranks, you'll have played so much that you'll probably have achieved that higher dan rank anyway.

Again, this is a closed tournament scenario (similar to your Mule party idea) where the users should be ranking among themselves and not the outside competition.  Since not everyone on Planet MULE is a member of this "Mule club", then they should be keeping track of their own ranks.  There are sites that facilitate such tournaments such as Cases Ladder (http://www.casesladder.com/).


Once again, and for the fourth time now, I never implied that two friends should not be able to play together.  However, I merely stated that their personal little tournament should not be ranked against the rest of Planet MULE. Even if they were playing from separate IP's, there would still be a problem here.  If two players just play each other repeatedly there should be a penalty in ranking ability after a certain number of games, so that the Planet Mule #1 rank doesnt end up belonging to the winner of a 2-man tournament.


Finally you have come up with another suggestion.  That is really what needs to be done instead of pointlessly continuously arguing my valid point.

I am not familiar with the Go system but I will give it a read-up when I have some time.  

In the meantime, I do have to say that not all online gaming communities have hopelessly broken ranking algorithms.  As I and someone else have pointed out, games.asobrain.com uses a very successful implementation of the ELO rating system.  They use the IP restriction and they also have an algorithm that lowers the score gaining ability of users that play agains the same persons over and over.  It works quite well and their ranking system is quite accurate.  Since it's a board game with multiple players, I use them as a reference to how the ranking system should work.  It's not perfect, but it does a good job at avoiding the cheating.

I am from Germany and no German ISP I've ever come across gives the same IP to two different persons at the same time.

At universities or in companys there will be many people with the same IP adress (using NAT, Network Adress Translation), but at home that's definitely not true in Germany. And I'm 99% sure the same goes for Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, UK, Sweden, etc. There might be some exotic exceptions, but these are not the rule.

IMHO protecting the ranking system from abuse is more important than enabling ranked matches for players with the same IP, I agree with Intergalactic Mole.
I agree with that too.