Planet M.U.L.E.

I just played a few C64 games with 3 AI,  I had first place all the time :-) and let me tell you a few things I noticed. Not saying PM should be changed, just some observations.

- Things move a lot slower in the C64 game, except the land grand WOW it's ridiculously fast!
- The length of a tournament game is pretty much the same as PM.
- Land auctions almost always happen on first round.
- The planet quake event happens BEFORE production, and production is just less.
- Remembering you energy units and stuff is tricky cause it doesn't display anywhere during development, and during auctions if you forget you don't see it anywhere.
- Plotting mules is way more difficult trying to get it on the little house. (I lost a pile of mules lol)
- If there is no crystite to sell the crystite auction doesn't even come up at all, completely skipped, it goes from smith auction to food auction. (might be a time saver in PM)
- I consistently had good events happen to me.  So the 1st place only ever gets negative events is completely false.
- I got the free plot on round 1 right after I bought a plot at auction! See the screen shot. (I was in first place too)
- Computer (2nd place) lost a plot in the 12th round which I found odd,.  Just weird to see the empty plot on the last round.
- AI's are very smart, they suck you into a bidding war on land auctions and then back out at the very last second forcing you to pay a very high price.
- Wampus is WAAAY harder to catch.
- You don't get refunded money when you swap mules from one outfit to another, and only get the price of the mule refunded when you put him back in the pen, not the price of the outfitting.
- Lower placed players get opportunity to sell/buy first, but if they don't get to the line at the EXACT same time then the opportunity is lost, it doesn't wait till everyone hits the line to start the buy/sell.  I know lag in PM is the reason we see it there...

Yay! Another player to taste the sweet milk of the C-64 version of M.U.L.E. However, first place should never get positive player events. You either played a tweaked version, your emulator really likes you, or well... you have violate-the-laws-of-programming good luck. With luck like that you should be playing online poker :).

Think the C64 version is better than the Atari - just wish there was a way to get into the code and tweak things like the crystite prices down from $56-$144 to say $12-$122, I always go into crystite and win - very rarely even put a Smithore plot on!

Other thing is I like to play the human to give the AI a chance but the time given at development is way too short (just 2 new MULE's) - wish you could change this time! If you play as the Flapper (beginner ) you get about the right amount of time for you to make the development intersting.

Like having to get the MULES precise on the houses - adds a bit of edge to the play that the Atari version doesn't have - also love the vageries of the AI , the Atari version is too precise!

You might be right, I have no idea where this rom originated, but it doesn't have the usual trademarks of a pirated/hacked version. i.e. the load screen with the props to other cracking groups and stuff.  I guess without actually firing up the old C64 to find out for sure I'll never to able to play a 'real' original lol  I doubt my 1541 is in alignment, and I dunno if I have the expertise to align it :-)

I bet if you grab a few different MULE 'roms' from different places you might find a version that has some of that stuff built in, many different games I have played under the emulator start up to a demo/load type screen and ask you if you want unlimited lives, no deaths, and many other cheats and hacks... 

I haven't seen a mule version out there like that tho :-)

And yes the C64 version is better than the atari version I tried the atari and was disappointed. course I grew up on the C64 so I am biased.

I have downloaded d64 images, and a copy of my own game disk (and mine was a "broken by the bandit" special, but when I got it, all that meant was that the copy protection had been cracked, I got the copy from a friend, and who knows where he got it, but I had a lot of disk nibbled copies of stuff, I think I maybe had 5 games on original floppies)

Anyways, as far as I can tell both versions I have play identical to each other.  I'll have to play them just to see how they play.  Been a while, can't remember.  It is tricky to get the mules plotted, seems harder in the emulator to, because of not having the right response time in the joystick emulation.

I usually played the packer, I liked being good with the food, lol.  I usually tried to rule the first 4 rounds via farming, then go crystite.  The computer covers smithore needs quite nicely.  You can't have a good smithore game with AI on the c64, but you can always win with crystite.  I did start doing human player more towards the end, just cause the extra challenge, starting with half as much money as the computer.  You have to be a flapper to start with $1200, all others start with $1000 even mechtron if you use it, humanoid starts with $600.  AI characters start with $1200 always, and they are always mechtron.

I wonder how they'd feel about us exchanging our D64 images on here? ;) lol

Me thinks the AI started with 1200 bucks and therefore you were not in first place in round 1, nor likely round 2.

Was going to reference this to make absolutely sure, but it seems to be offline?

http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/

Hope I downloaded a copy somewhere, I'll have to look about.

I wonder what grungy grub made him remove it, or if we just hit it so much he figured out it has some value...

Ah found it, see the tournament AI initial cash here:

http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/Mule/mule_document.html#PlayersInitialMoney

I was playing flapper so I started with more money than the bots did.  So I must have been in first place.

Ok, flapper.  It is a beginner toon, hence you got a free plot cause the game thought you were retarded... not because its in fact possible in proper tournament play to win a plot in first place.

Also, while I am at it, your statement:

"it doesn't wait till everyone hits the line to start the buy/sell.  I know lag in PM is the reason we see it there..."

Is untrue, in c64 mule, there is a brief delay where a person not on the line can move onto it after someone else, who is ahead of them in the standings, and they will still be considered "first in line to buy."  I don't know what the total time for delay is like compared to the current PM implementation but to say it didn't wait at all, is completely and patently false.  For the record, the current delay was a lot longer on PM the last time I played.

Much like the other statement that so riled me:

"I consistently had good events happen to me.  So the 1st place only ever gets negative events is completely false."

...it is completely and patently false in relation to PM.  You failed to mention that you were in effect playing in beginner mode by using the beginner character - a mode which has absolutely no bearing on actual tournament play.  PM doesn't have a beginner toon and doesn't need one for tournament play.  Neither did c64 even though it was an option.  Afterall if you want to teach someone how to play with 1k to start it doesn't really help to show them how to start with 1600 anyway.  You have to learn to play with the big boys by learning how to play like they do.  But that's another story.

Most of everything you said else is accurate.

PS Don't try to remember how much energy you have but how much you have to develop additional plots.  1, 2, 3, or 4 is pretty easy to remember.  PM just holds your hand for some reason, this is a basic part of the original game's variation.  It took a lot of different skills to play Mule successfully and that was by design.  I think it's a retarded innovation in the current game that is actually hurting the game and not help it at all......... :'(

The current energy estimates in P.M. seem accurate to me, it accounts for all non energy developed plots +1, which is how it is done on the c64.

I still have to remember if I'm going to convert energy or develop more than one none energy plot the next round, to make sure I have more than it says I need.

As small as it is I'm sure you are correct and it is there in the original mule. Although in PM a player can be 2/3 of the way up to the buy line and still make it there to be first in line to buy.


I had no idea the flapper had other 'fringe' benefits besides the extra cash to start with in tournament mode. I also dunno why it got you so riled up, I was just stating what happened to me while I was playing :-)  I guess I'll try playing humanoid for a few games and see how it goes.

I agree the current time delay is ridonculous and hurts the game play.

The devs keep screaming LAG like a pack of girls and expect us all to buy their cheap excuse.  Somewhere I read them say "lag will always be there and so will this..." I say BS lag might always exist but it will not always be so bloody bad... it certainly isn't bad at all for many people already with today's current technology.  They seem to be on a crusade to support people on modems ffs.

Either way however, having you "testify" to the original game play mechanics and get them WRONG, is not helpful.

In a similar vein I get riled when I read these kinds of posts not just from you but from official staffers.  I pull no punchs when I smell shitty info, I love Mule and I don't want to see this remake be a pos because of it.

Failing someone like me getting riled and replying... these misinformed posts would have the grand total effect of further confusing the oblivious devs and risks making them move even further away from the original spec when that is not their stated intention.

Personally I think your are trying to help and commend you for it, but be bloody careful unless you do more harm than good.

It does seem that until lag is universally an average of under 100ms, that it will be an issue, in many games my lag is averaging 250ms, that is nearly 3 seconds, that is about the amount of time allowed to hit that line.

I do also have games where my lag is as little at 70ms, under a second.  That's when the obviousness of the delay gets to seem excessive, but it's all related to the quality of the host connection to me.

Some host seem to take advantage of this, intentionally creating extra lag in their connections in excess of 400ms, then they can delay the other players long enough to make sure they actually hit the line first regardless of placement.  (We all know who I'm talking about.)

Price of playing a world wide online game, you see that kind of lag in every real time internet player, even the RPG/FPG games.  When ping gets beyond 200ms in most those RPGs, it seems you can't get a shot off before someone else gets you, so it definitely plays a roll, you can have the fastest connection on the planet, but if the ping times are slow, it won't matter in a game like this.  Speed equals fast streams of data.  Ping equals fast responce (how long it takes data to get from you to the other end of the line, and return, it's a round trip number measurable in increments of time, every 100ms is 1 second.)

Regarding handicaps in the original mule.  What it says is a strength for the various races really is programmed in.  Packers really do generally make better farmers, etc.

Humanoid, not only starts with less money, but seems to get more negatives, regardless of placement in my experience, so I can believe flapper gets more good stuff.

I can't remember which race was the most neutral, probably mechtron, because because it is the machine race.

@CC

100 ms = 0.100 seconds (i.e. ms = milliseconds) 1 mille is like saying 1 1000, 1 milli is like saying 1 1000th or 1/1000

Likewise a big 2 l (litre) bottle of pop is in fact 2000 mL.  A megabyte is a fact a mille mille byte or 1000 1000 bytes.

So your 250ms ping is actually a round trip of ~1/2 seconds total. It has to be round trip since server/client need to communicate and acknowledge one another in an app like pm.

Its not great but not unreasonable imo to design an engine that meets your specs in a fair manner, and even to meet better specs when they are available... 30ms round trip pings are more than possible.  We see at 28 frames per second, thats about 1 frame every 0.036 seconds or 1 every 36 ms.

Its a tight fit but still a conservatively good ping in my experience, and of course its only by today's standards.

Now if they can design it such that 1 chunk of communication is really only necessary for every other frame, or every other 3 or 4 the min. ping for an excellent experience is greatly increased and lost communications probably wouldn't be bother anyone but the most experienced, astute and unlucky of players...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping

Also @CC, as far as I know their is NO difference between the Tournament toons.

The bots and newbs got some special ed treatment BUT the tournament players all seem to play out perfectly equal in my experience.  You would think for instance that Gollumer got auctions more or preference buying or selling, or on breaks of one kind or another but that is not how the game plays out.  Similarly you would think Legite could move faster in mountains or something similar but there is no effect to my knowledge...

I think Kroah's decompile backs up that observation but I am too lazy to find the section again.

But if you want the absolutely final answer a complete decompile is the only way to go.  I expect you would find that at some point after they spent time creating and putting in the concept, they discovered they couldn't afford the memory space to implement it... now EA being who EA is still today decided why remove the notion that there is a difference since no one will ever be able to prove otherwise.  Which in a lot of ways is actually a brilliant trick, 25 years later my group of players still debate it but no one has any evidence afaik.

Well now you are just contradicting yourself,  3 posts ago you told me that because I was playing flapper (i.e. beginner toon) I got special treatment and now you say that there is no difference between the toons in tournament mode?  I dunno man It really doesn't seem that you know what you are talking about.

Ok, you're right my math is wrong on ms, wasn't thinking right when I typed that, but, in any case, it's noticeable lag when you get over 200ms ping times.

You are very contradictory in your statement to me vs your statement to mikman though.  I haven't studied the decompilation myself, but if flapper is privileged, it would stand to reason that humanoid would be especially prone to negative events.

ha ha! come on man

beginner and expert races have advantages and disadvantages. all other races are equal. isn't this common sense?? why are you attacking these guys who are just trying to help you out? they know what they're talking about. be nice.

Thank you poobslag for helping to clear this up.

I think my mistake is calling the standard toons, tournament toons.  The "standard" toons are: Gollumer, Packer, Bonzoid, Spheroid and Legite.  I do not believe they have any differences although their descriptions in the original c64 version CLAIMED that they did.

The standard toons are considered tournament toons in my mind.

The beginner toons Flapper was treated differently, I know for certain he got more cash, more time during plot development, I believe he has other advantages but these are the ones I know about for a fact.  No one I know plays or played this toon much.

I know for certain the Humanoid (expert/hard) toon got 600 to start and less time for developments.  He may have also started with different amounts of goods and got a lot more bad breaks but again we almost never play or played this toon.

The Mechatron (ai) toon got 1200 (apparently only in tournament mode), if there are any other differences I don't know since no one I can speak for played or plays this toon either.

Whenever we speak of comparison to the original c64 toons we assume your are talking about tournament toons since PM only supports playing as these essential core M.U.L.E toons.

@CC and mikman

I wasn't clear but I don't think I contradicted myself.  The STANDARD toons are treated equally in my experience.

@CC

I agree the 200ms in the current PM is a huge problem, but I believe there is a better solution out there.

For my ideas on that please see this thread:

http://www.planetmule.com/forum?topic=1054.0

Chukie,
    1000ms = 1 second not 100

Yes, I got that now Whoos, wasn't thinkin the other night when I said 100 and compared to seconds.

I guess what confused me is that you can play beginner, standard, and tournament mode. And you can choose any of the characters (toons) regardless of the mode.  I never made the connection that there were beginner, standard, and tournament characters. I guess I never referred to them this way.  humanoid was always expert and flapper was easy, mechtron was computer and the rest were just the rest :-\

Thanks for clarifying.

Ya sorry I did it again there,

There are 4 types of toons or characters you can select:

- beginner
- standard
- expert
- AI

I associate standard with tournament mode, but its a completely misleading way to say tournament toons... any of them can be played by human players.

Personally, we got good at standard players and found we sucked and got beat on too badly in expert mode to have fun and compete alot.  Expert is a real grind on c64 M.U.L.E. we never liked it and never played much with the expert toon.  I think it was a lot of bad breaks and over by the 8th round when we did. Many plots undeveloped too.

Standard is the way to play in multiplayer M.U.L.E. games, but if you're going up against AI, using expert is fun because it adds just enough challenge to make beating the AI a little more difficult.  Still very doable though, you just fight your way all the way to the end before you know for sure, usually they have more land at the end than you, you have to start changing to crystite early, timing really is everything when you play expert.