Collusion naye = Timing / Step Value yay

[Blitzen]

I have noticed people speak of the dreaded Collusion which I was very pleased to see completely missing.

I have been playing this game on the C64 for the past 20 years, at least once or twice a year (for 3 or 4 games each), we have literally played 100s and maybe even more than a 1000 games.  We banned Collusion from our games a long time ago, deciding that it was simply a form of cheating and added nothing to the "game".  More-over, Collusion discouraged the player who was Colluded "against" from playing and destroyed interest in the game... The only exception we would allow is in property swaps, which NEVER happened anyway incidentally.

While it is possible to "cooperate" with players and demolish another player regardless of whether you allow Collusion or not, Collusion is a very direct method of overcoming all the obstacles the game puts in place which make it interesting and challenging.  The guy in first shouldn't get to buy anything if the guys behind him have the money and the desire... even if its just one of those guys who actually wants/needs to stop him.

I think the original timing to deploy Mules and the original timing / step rate for auctions, would be a much more valued pursuit than Collusion.  For example it never used to be possible to transfer all your funds to another player by trading just 4 units at 5k each.  Furthermore, it was never possible to run a property from 160 to 5000 in a single auction... often making it possible for someone to buy a plot even though they do not have the most money.  Also, it used to be possible to buy and deploy 3 mules of any type to nearly any plot - in fact you could do 4 Mules under ideal circumstances.  This a crucial difference, which affects switching markets and paying / outfitting plots after a shortage of Mules or funds.  I could go on and on about this difference...

How about you guys, what do you think?

PS All in all I love this game and look forward to playing it for the next 20 years, thank you, whoever yous are.

[Big Head Zach]

I approve of this priority - price adjustment during the auction turns out to be a key part of the balance in that it restricts how absurd pricing can be (in lieu of land auctions which actually function like an auction, but that's just me grousing a bit).

And no, I haven't died. I've just been unemployed, which can suck.

[Pescado]

I have noticed people speak of the dreaded Collusion which I was very pleased to see completely missing.

I disagree that collusion shouldn't be in the game, because collusion DOES add a very important element to the game. Additionally, is *IS* part of the game, and a reimplementation of Mule should not be a pick and choose of what features you want to have in the game, it should be a faithful reimplementation of the original, with the only compromises being what is strictly necessary to make it function in a modern environment.

I have been playing this game on the C64 for the past 20 years, at least once or twice a year (for 3 or 4 games each), we have literally played 100s and maybe even more than a 1000 games.  We banned Collusion from our games a long time ago, deciding that it was simply a form of cheating and added nothing to the "game".

If you've been playing it on C64, I'd be surprised you would BAN collusion, since a C64 has only two joystick ports, meaning there would normally only be two players in the game...who would collude with each other, against the AIs, who tend to sabotage the colony by virtue of being AIs.

The guy in first shouldn't get to buy anything if the guys behind him have the money and the desire... even if its just one of those guys who actually wants/needs to stop him.

This is actually sort of stupid, but it's faithful to the original game. Yet it will produce exactly the same kind of irritation and loss of interest in the game that being colluded against would. In fact, collusion is the COUNTERMOVE to this sort of thing. It seems more to me that you want your favorite toy to be without the countermove that balances against it.

No arguments about the timing step thing. Anything that brings the game closer to the original is considered a good thing.

[piete]

If you've been playing it on C64, I'd be surprised you would BAN collusion, since a C64 has only two joystick ports, meaning there would normally only be two players in the game...who would collude with each other, against the AIs, who tend to sabotage the colony by virtue of being AIs.

[OT] On the contrary, the majority of the games I played on the C64 were 4-player games. At least we had the keyboard control. What about Atari XL, could you play a 4-player game on it since the game was originally written for a 4-joystick port model Atari (pre-XL)? [/OT]

[Blitzen]

Ya on the C64, two could play from keyboard along with 2 more on joysticks, it was a little awkward:

- the left keyboard player: "Q" and "Commodore Key" or "C="
         up and down (simultaneous = button press in auctions, for collusion)
- the right keyboard player: "Up Arrow" and "Equals Symbol"
         up and down (simultaneous = button press in auctions, for collusion)

At the beginning of the game when you choose your colors, the keyboard players also had to use both buttons to make the selection final... leading to some cases of the wrong color getting picked when someone didn't hit them both properly.

...

To us, playing all in the same room, Collusion was what took place during and in between every moment of the game anyway... wheeling and dealing to manipulate markets and get goods and plots is the best part of this game.

But when two bed buddies decide to Collude, usually to only one of the players great advantage... in every game they play... there is no point in playing any more games, the bed buddies win every time.  It is, afterall, supposed to be every man for himself, not a 2 vs 2 game.

I can not argue about the fact that it IS a part of the original game.  Its on all the packaging and even in the manual.

And, I have read some of Dan Bunten's Web pages and he does actually point out Collusion in the features of Mule...

But I digress!

Does he mention it simply because it IS a part of the game? Or because it is a GREAT part of the game? Or, does he drop it like marketing hype, because it is in fact a great synonym for the rather longer and more complex 1 - 1.5 hour 4 player game?

Collusion feels to me like a last minute addition, by some marketing guys who couldn't begin to explain that it was already in the game.

Should this "feature" make it into a coming version of this game I would dearly love the option to turn this OFF in the game configuration somehow... pretty please with sugar on top... 

Especially in the current online gaming world where so many "bed buddies" have already proven themselves evident.  And where it is in fact trivial to run two or more accounts simultaneously!  Centralized hosting or not, if people can zombie multiple players in World of Warcraft and Everquest simultaneously (HOLY monthly fees!) what makes anyone think they won't here where the game is in fact completely free of charge?

Collusion just makes it that much easier for them to be the bums they are... 

On that note, voice chat SHOULD really be built into this game! I really, really want to know for a fact I am playing against 4 people, otherwise I am just volunteering to be beat up by the angry soul with a proxy and an extra PC... you CANNOT fake four people talking and playing at the same time. 

[Wafe]

What about Atari XL, could you play a 4-player game on it since the game was originally written for a 4-joystick port model Atari (pre-XL)?

I played an Atari 1200XL - always went 2-player.  Don't recall if we ever tried to get 4 going.  Wonder if a splitter on the joystick port would have worked...  Don't recall ever using the keyboard - seems like that would have gotten a little crowded. 

[piete]

In a live 4-player game you could always punch the colluding players, over the internet it is a bit more difficult....

[Keybounce]

Collusion for land trades is a great thing.

Back in the day, our biggest problem with collusion was just technical difficulty in making it happen, not the act itself.

Why not let AI's collude with each other?

[The Wampus]

WRONG!!!

   COllusion is a great cooperative tool to sell to a player who needs food or energy below the store price.

Here is how we used to use it.

Beacuse of spoilage food and energy are never good to stock pile therefore to keep store price high collude amoungst members to obtain enough to max your turn but never sell to the store - keeping price high
The collony need only produce enough food/energyfor each turn plus an extra plot for every 4 food/energy  plots should a random reduce food or energy production.

Smithore - NEVER sell to the store unless mules run out then only sell enough to replenish the number        of mules needed for each turn  again Collusioin keeps the store price high so the collony becomes rich!
     STOCKPILE smithore for the game no spoilage

Crystite - each turn everyone should assay a property  then build four plots in a square around the rich deposits so you make increased production bonuses.  sell all crystite when price goes up over 120 because you can have 2 pirate raids per game I have never seen 3

Lastly,  I need to get on this game online here

[Blitzen]

Who sells the competitiion food and energy for anything less than max?!?  Wtf are you playing Flower Mule or something?

All your other examples had nothing to do with the "collusion" feature, but with the collution nature of the game, that of which IS already in the game.... albeit a little warped.

I have been thinking a lot about this game lately, and this post...

Although I still think collusion might make it too easy for bed buddies, simply playing a second account is far more destructive... and I am fairly sure they will never be able to mitigate that potential for abuse without changing the nature of the "anonymous" Internet...

That being said, go ahead and give them their cake - it will only help me identify the turds in the bowl.

 

EDIT: You are also insane if you have a chance to dump smithore at 230 and instead give it to another player... I ask you again what is this some sort of Daisy Parade?

[Big Head Zach]

Beacuse of spoilage food and energy are never good to stock pile therefore to keep store price high collude amoungst members to obtain enough to max your turn but never sell to the store - keeping price high

Not selling to the store doesn't keep price high. Relative availability of goods and high trading prices do. All collusion does is let you violate the normal order of priority at the auction, so you can ensure your goods come from / go to the person you want them to, and not whoever is in last place.

The collony need only produce enough food/energyfor each turn plus an extra plot for every 4 food/energy  plots should a random reduce food or energy production.

If you meet needs each turn, there is never a reason for the price of Food and Energy to go up - unless players decide amongst themselves that Food / Energy should be more valuable and decide to trade at those prices, thereby updating the market value (and the Store will respond by raising its prices as well).

Smithore - NEVER sell to the store unless mules run out then only sell enough to replenish the number of mules needed for each turn  again Collusioin keeps the store price high so the collony becomes rich!
     STOCKPILE smithore for the game no spoilage

Without Smithore, MULEs don't get produced. The price of Smithore depends on the number of MULEs and the number of owned, uninstalled plots. You're correct in this; once you have Smithore spiked, the way to keep it there is to have MULE demand/supply be as close to 1.0 as possible, and then just hoard like crazy...

...but you're incorrect that Smithore doesn't spoil...it does after 50 units, which means this strategy will eventually fail, when either everyone has 50 Smithore (and therefore the last round's production breaks this tie, a rather wonky means of winning), or someone will get tired of having no MULEs and liquidates.

Crystite - each turn everyone should assay a property then build four plots in a square around the rich deposits so you make increased production bonuses.  sell all crystite when price goes up over 120 because you can have 2 pirate raids per game I have never seen 3

Also correct.

[zaphod77]

Collusion does allow for some serious abuses.

The biggest one is ensuring that a 12th round transfer can happen, to perform a value boost and shoot into first place.

Without collusion, you can stop this by having the other two players go towards the middle on round 12.

This can be fixed by barring collusion on round 12.

Collusion is a tool to use and abuse. Here are some of the many uses of collusion.

Land auction collusion.

1) Selling a plot of land to the person you want to sell to. Fair.
2) setting up a land trade such that two people make a mutually beneficial arrangement without letting the last place player cut in. Absolutely Fair. The other two can set u trades of their own to catch up.
3) Selling ALL your land to the same other player when you know you aren't gonna win.  This is pretty cheap, and if you do that don't expect people to want to play with you or the person you keep helping.

Normal auction collusion.

1) locking the last place player out of your trade.  Cruel, but completely fair.
2) make a trade at the value you want before the other two players conspire to jack the price up.  Fair. one of the best uses of collusion.
3) locking out the person who got ahead of you with the buy-sell bar. Completely fair.
4) squeezing in a last second trade when the two of you aren't gonna make it in time. GREAT use.
5) Setting up abusive last turn trades and protecting them from interference.  There are two ways this works.

a) transfer a single unit at high price to boost the value of the goods.

Without collusion, the lead player goes to sell and moves to the halfway point.

b) sell low to 2nd place and buy very high from second place to push them above the first place player without interference. This works even in planet mule.

Without collusion, the lead player simply flops to the same as the 2nd place player and immediately moves to the halfway point.

If collusion were implemented, both of these are unstoppable.

[Keybounce]

Who sells the competitiion food and energy for anything less than max?!?  Wtf are you playing Flower Mule or something?

If you sell at max, then the other players will develop their own.

I'm convinced that there is a winning strategy of selling food and energy to the other three players at a price that is high enough to make money, but low enough that all of them buy from you instead of self supplying. You make a portion of what the miners make, not as much as any single miner, but you get three incomes instead of one.

The trick? Earn more than 1/3rd of what the second place miner is making, but not more than 1/3rd of the first place miner.

[Blitzen]

If you fore-go either Smithore or Crystite you will get crushed like a bug.  Instead of paying you for food, one plot will produce enough...  Instead of paying you for energy, horde it and never let the guy in first get any...

Conversely, I cannot for-go food and energy because if you chose not to sell either to me I will very soon find myself in last forever.  Time it right and you could keep me from doing anything but drinking for the entire game... oh the memories!

Crystite is required if someone dumps Smithore all the time (some AI pink dink for example) keeping the store price low.  If all four colonists are Smithore whores like good little Mulers are... then you are going to be buried alive every time they dump for 12k - 24k, and another 6k next turn.... even if you have ALL the crystite plots.  In a normal whore filled game, that usually happens twice.

So you have to make 30 - 50k off food and energy to keep up with the Jones.  Not going to happen.

Sorry, myth busted. 

[Keybounce]

Well, let me point something out.

If I have a reputation as being trustable, and of being able to deliver on my pledge of providing food and energy, then what happens? If two people self supply food and energy, and the third buys from me, then the third will do better on production volume, and destroy the others. So, if I have a positive reputation, then playing with me is the only winning choice if someone else is playing with me.

And then, yes, the massive dump of 230 smithore will happen, but that is when I charge a premium for energy. Again, if someone tries to provide their own energy at that point, they are seriously hurting their production at the most valuable point.

Possible? I still say yes.