1.3.4 Comprehensive feature list or change log?

[Keybounce]

Let me turn around and ask this:

If the store only needs to purchase about 60-70 smithore over the whole game, why is it prepared to pay 230 per unit for 200 units?

If there is a large supply of energy, more than needed, the store will lower its price, right?

If there is a large supply of smithore, and the only possible use of smithore in game is to provide mules, and the store knows that it will be selling mules at 80, and stuck with lots of worthless ore, why does it pay so much for it?

The only external input of funds into the colony is crystite mining. That has value elsewhere. And it varies. It can be stolen.

Smithore has no value except for mules, but the store will pay a bundle for it.

===

If you really think that you can keep smithore down by yourself, then I give you this challenge: Play 3 people who are into smithore manipulation. Keep the price down below 100 per unit the whole game.

Doable? Probably. I bet you'll be 4th.

Can you get to first place against smithore manipulators? Frankly, I don't see how, unless you have some way to starve them of energy. Not likely to happen.

[Keybounce]

Ever see how they made Monopoly for the PC/iPad?

They changed nothing mofos, oh wait the banker is automated... 1 thing, they changed one thing... they even put in animated rolling dice!!!

Ever hear of Monopoly 2.0?

Didn't think so.  Why not?

No one wanted it. No one needed it.  Monopoly 1.0 was perfect.

Egads, no. God no.

The PC versions of monopoly I've seen have been complete bleep-ups.

- How bankruptcies are handles is broken in every version I've seen. All of a sudden, out of no where, you get trade requests. Want to examine the board and consider? Want to see if you can make another trade with another person first?
- Trading, in general, is broken. Every computer player I've seen overvalues their property, and undervalues yours. None are willing to make fair trades.
- The complete inability to say "Hold the dice". In real monopoly, you are allowed to make trades, or build property, between your opponents dice throws. Even on doubles -- you can build/trade before they take the next throw. Haven't seen a computer version yet that let you.
- While there are many "house rules", notably free parking money, in the computer monopolies, there is not one I've seen that lets you auction property before the game starts.
- An absolutely simple "turn 1 last move fix" for monopoly is to say "If you land on a space already occupied, roll again and move additional space". That's an actual rule in Fast Food Franchise, and it solves all of the "starting order curse" of monopoly. Not one computer version supports it.

House rule? Sure, but so is free parking -- I can find that on computers. Auctioning property? One of the variants in the rule book is "deal N (suggested 2) properties to each player" -- it's not hard to extend that to deal many, nor to auctioning.

Let me ask you: Is monopoly a game of "who is lucky to land on what space", or is monopoly a game of "who can make good trades"? Is a good trade "something no one will agree to unless they are dying", or a trade you can make while the game is still early? Is auctioning property the single best way to handle property skill better than randomness?

Every play an 18xx family game? Everything is all about the auctions (stock market).

Does a game play a certain way? That doesn't make it "perfect" -- that just means that's how someone else played it. Is Chess perfect? Should queens have the knight move? Did they, at one point? Has the game been changed over time? What makes one version better than another?

What about Go -- there's been changes to how you score it, even if there have not been changes to the ruleset.

===
1830, the computer version, added in every sort of optional rule -- even new ones -- that are easy to implement on a computer. In particular, there are only so many physical tiles in the paper game. So, there is a rule that you can run out of ways to build railroads. Realistic? Not in the least. Does it make a better game? Is the computer's optional rule of "no limit on tiles" better? Is an artificial shortage better?

I score better with the artificial limit on tiles, because I know how to run out the useful tiles. That doesn't mean it's a better game -- that means I know how to exploit those rules and physical limits better.

The 1830 game lasts long enough by default that you reach "stability", and get to see who actually has the best position. There's an optional rule that lets you play with less money, and the game ends before stability. In Planet Mule terms, that's like ending at turn 12 -- where smithore is still being manipulated, and crystite has not come to dominate -- and ending at turn 18, where smithore would always be flat, and crystite income dominates. Does a 12 turn game really make a better game in mule?

You seem to be insisting that "one specific version is absolutely perfect", and cannot be improved on. Yet that one version has many flaws -- one abusable market, a game that ends before the colony has really finished becoming a mining colony, with "who is making the best materials" not really answered yet.

How much of the rules in M.U.L.E. are based on "There's not enough memory to write something better; there's not enough time to write something better; we'll just release what we've got and let it be what it is"?

[Chuckie Chuck]

Reality is though, that manipulation could occur in the original, the game mechanics are the same, the store will pay that much in the original if you manipulate the same way.

So then your fricken argument is that you don't like the play style in mule.  Sorry you don't like it.  Not anything wrong with the game in that regards, it's the players.

The argument doesn't hold much water as far as the game not being written well.  I will say the AI in the new PM is horrid compared to original, but the playability with four human players is really not very different at all.  Minor differences in speed here and there, the random events are a little screwy, but play function in auctions isn't terribly far off (no not exact, but very close)

[Keybounce]

Reality is though, that manipulation could occur in the original, the game mechanics are the same, the store will pay that much in the original if you manipulate the same way.

* You could manipulate ALL of the items in that way in the original *
* Planet mule only lets you manipulate smithore. *

How much of the rules in M.U.L.E. are based on "There's not enough memory to write something better; there's not enough time to write something better; we'll just release what we've got and let it be what it is"?

The original game did not have the ability to accurately alter the store's perceived value based on production.
The new game does, but only for food and energy -- artificially limiting that adjustment.

Either remove that restriction from food and energy -- letting people manipulate 3 types of commodities -- or add the realistic pricing seen on food/energy to smithore.

===

If I were to make a change to something, it would be the pricing range of the store for food/energy. Right now it is (I think) +10 to -15. Frankly, I think that range is too narrow, and since it doesn't move/scale as the price moves and the money supply changes, it's broken -- in the sense that there's better systems, that are too big to fit into a small computer's memory.

===

We are back to one basic point: You seem to feel that a certain rule, no matter how illogical, or crazy; no matter how much it funnels all game play to one winning strategy; no matter how it was originally developed -- is the best possible rule.

You feel that letting the smithore market behave differently than the other markets, in an illogical manner, that makes it the only winning strategy at the high end -- is best.

Some people feel that the best solution is to mimic the original game as closely as possible -- not because it's the best way, but because that's the goal. No problem with that -- it means that the game will fork at some point -- but that's not how the current version of planet mule behaves.

If you want to mimic the original, then change PM's handling of food/energy. Adjust PM's timing behaviors. Etc.

If you want to make a better game, then have smithore behave differently. Make the game longer. A couple of other things.

If you want to make a new game based on this, then you have the mule2 fork -- a new resource, a larger map, some "same time" behavior, a better land grab system, the ability of players to be different from each other, with potentially different winning strategies, etc.

So, three options. Which do you want:
1. Modify PM to match the original M.U.L.E. better
2. Modify PM to make a better M.U.L.E.
3. Modify PM to make a better game similar to M.U.L.E.

The designers have stated that they want 1.
I want 2.
The mule2 team is going for 3.

You seem to want something else -- "what we have now" -- regardless of whether there is a better game design or not.

[Chuckie Chuck]

Actually, if you're refering to me, I'm in 100% agreement, on most your points Keybounce.

I am one of the people that wants this version to match the original.

I'm just stating that Blitzen's arguement makes no sense to me, that this current version is playably very close to original, with the acception of some minor timing issues and the food and energy auctions.

He's battling the wrong direction if he wants this to match the original.  (Which is what he claims to want.)

I do want Mule 2 to be a better version with more complex concepts and better math than the original, with options to even change the rule book at will to make the game play more challenging or simpler based on the taste of the host.  Mule 2 should rightfully take advantage of what the computer can actually handle now.  The original was definitely limited due to the computer it was written for.  I don't want to loose the original, and that's what P.M. 1 is all about, preservation, but Mule 2 should by all rights incorporate new ideas and functionality and be more real.  So call my goal a combo of both points 1 and 2.

[Keybounce]

Ahh. Ok.

Then add back in the ability to manipulate the others. And let food have value on turn 12 :-).

[Chuckie Chuck]

Blitzen seems to want the game modified to force everyone to play the way you'd play if you were playing against the AI in the original.  I say if that is what he wants, let him play the original in the emulator or the real Atari/c64.  You can't force people to play your style.  On the other hand, if he plays 4 player with buddies that he played it with as a kid, then his rule book should work just fine in this version, he just needs to play with his original peeps.

[Blitzen]

Just stopped by to drool on this in public:

http://www.amazon.com/Prograde-S-Video-Distribution-Amplifier-Analog/dp/B004AJLILC

I'm close to a capture from the original hardware, might speak louder than words.

I survived without this but it does screw up the sound on the 4 player game we got captured.  I crash and burn so you all should enjoy it. 

Not sure about the audio from the players, we used a headset to trap that.  Might be a while before i cut it up, fix the intro music, respec!, hopefully its not all interlaced to hell... gimme a month or two...

Re. smithore being too dominant in the new game, I think it is a result of the rate at which mules can be switched.  Now guys can be in crystite or smithore late in the game and switch to another one in the last 2 turns, where it used to take more turns to switch 100%.  I haven't played this version in months and stand by any other differences I may have brought up about this, the details are getting vague.  They still refund the cost of outfitting on switches??

Whereas I have played c64 games with 3 other guys on two occasions about 10 times now since then, probably restarted another 5 games around the 4th turn due to various reasons... RL interuptions and games that get fubar for various reasons...

...things like some dummy didn't hit their button to the game just hit someone with a radiation mule and lose a plot on the same round in the 2nd or 3rd turn, with near 0 spread from 1st to 4th...

Cheers and thanks again for the s-video construction tip, if nothing else its made us much more likely to play now.   

[Blitzen]

Further to your previous post Chucky what I want is a game that matches the original, not in vague ways like the scope of the rule book.

The truly meaningful way would maintain the original balance and course of the game flawlessly.  I only play with real opponents, and only when 4 of us are available to play.

Further, I personally see nothing wrong with the original sound and gfx.  Skin it up if you must but please let the original artwork speak for itself somehow.  Again when you do part 2? surprise me please.

The real life interaction must be facilitated by the remake when played over the internet, this would be a meaningful addition in a faithful remake.  Where are those parts of the plans for part 2 even?

You guys don't support 4 player sit down for the times when we are all together either.  We don't want 4 laptops around a table, we have a TV on the wall... a computer can is hooked up to it.

There are two critical things I would of added to the original, internet play is only 1 part of the improvements NEEDED.  But in terms of changing the rules, to fix "it"... "it" ain't broke.  Get over it.

But why change anything you do not have to?  Remake it simply exact and then make part 2, show us all how its done.

M.U.L.E. is dead!  Long live M.U.L.E. I say!

[Blitzen]

I'll come back and try to respond to everything else later....

[Chuckie Chuck]

I like the idea of four player on one PC, but the interface would need a complete rewrite, to function by design with four game controllers rather than keyboard, PC Clone keyboard buffers won't support the input of four players on the keyboard simultaneously, so the solution would have to be, multiple USB based input devices, and the interface was not written for that, I hope they might eventually create such a version, but I'm imagining that being the low budget production that Planet M.U.L.E. is that is way way on the back burner.

If there was demand for it from a market that would purchase the game, and make it profitable, I think you'd have a winner.  So far, the admins/programmers here seem to be interested solely in internet free play with a decent, but not exact approximation of the original, and that means limits on how far they will go with realism and making it a single PC interface.

Like the idea, but unless someone gives some seriously financial backing for such a project, I don't see it happening, and we'd loose a lot of the things that do make the current version so great, unless they do in a commercial effort, keep customization tools in mind to create our own skins/sound schemes.  This free effort is already endorsed by the people with the rights to the original programming, so that seems unlikely.

[Blitzen]

Darn its not just the audio in my 4 player video but the frame rate keeps dropping to 0 here and there and there... blame my silly mistakes in Virtualdub... something about overlay being on while recording, even with preview off doesn't jive...

Oh well I'll get one eventually, maybe I'll have a distribution amp too so we can play and hear properly without fudging the capture.

I'll see if I can get up a communist game of 2 guys playing all 4 positions for the time being.  My uncle and I plan on playing one of these sooner.

[Chuckie Chuck]

Composite capture devices still have imperfections.  Best solution is to capture the analog source with something digital that is dedicated (not a multitasking computer)

example - I'll hook the output into a digital video camera (most newer camera's can capture through the output ports - the ports go both directions, just takes a few mods in the settings in VCR mode for it to recognize that it is receiving input.

Then if it's a taped based digital camera, you can capture using firewire, or if it's a newer solidstate or hard drive based cam, you can just copy the file and compress to a format suitable for internet.

If you are trying to capture realtime with the PC and an analog capture device and even with firewire/usb, it is very important that you shut down all processes not related to capture (IM proggies, browsers, screen savers, power management all need to be shut down, sometimes even the antivirus)  These programs steal CPU time, and data needs to moved very fast and fluidly as a stream during capture, any interruptions, even on the fastest computer, can cause a drop in frames, simply because for just a few milliseconds, the CPU went to another task.

[Blitzen]

All great suggestions, my bug is literally driver related, VirtualDub triggers it with Overlay turned on while capturing (even though it stops showing it during captures).  I have the solution now for a smooth loseless 720 x 480 capture.  My CPU usage is about 40% I think, 0 dropped frames, audio is +-1ms sync, hardrive is about 20% of its throughput.  Because of the debugging I had to do, I had almost every service disabled including networking, its a fresh build with old stable drivers only video editing required software is installed at this point.  Its also disconnected from da dubia dubia dubia, what a pita.

Sys. ~specs.  P4 2.8c w/ 1gb ram @ pc2700, sapphire ati radeon 9800se, a sapphire ati theatre 550 (capture),  sata-I connected 500gb seagate and 2TB western digital both @7200 rpm, 16x lg dvdrw, some chezzy onboard Sis sound.  She has plenty to go for capturing the 2TB is brand new after I figured out another 500GB drive I had would be taking a dirt nap... <<=15mb/sec @ 65 degress celcius.  Thank you tuneHD.

The only issue I see with your strategy is you can't play off a camcorder, and if you can the output might be delayed.  If the damn capture device has a passthrough output as well your laughing... so in our case we do need a split amplifier to pull it off properly, especially for the audio as my splitting it to the stereo and PC seems to destroy the quality most efficiently.

A truly digital capture would be awesome but I don't have those kind of skillz. 

I'm on an NTSC c64 so I'm capturing at 60 fps progressive (now) and going to need to deinterlace it with a bob filter (TFF) to get nice square pixels and to get rid of the dreaded combing effect.

I also need a separate machine to capture voice for 2 - 3 hrs, with an omni mic of some quality preferably tied into a half decent sound card.  Even a laptop 486 would work if its harddrive was big enough. 

Hopefully I can clean up what I otherwise can't technically pull off.  An iPhone works ok I think, but it's not capturing loseless, or decompressed so it makes cleanup and edits a total bitch.

I'm learning but its not easy to get a perfect capture.  A perfect digital capture will have to wait until I am better funded and some sorta idiots guide comes along.

...its also going to be a pain to clean out all the pausing we do in a game sometimes.... 1.5 hrs will be long enough lol....

However all that said I am extremely pleased with the quality I know I will get in the end, I have tried some SID plugins with WinAmp and the sound you get just isn't right -- the emulators can't quite get it right or my available sound cards aren't sufficient.

I will make a post in the general area and post a capture of the intro music I cleaned up a little and made into an mp3.  Roy Glover rulez I hope no one minds me showing it off?!

Thanks again for all you help.

[Chuckie Chuck]

You have much to learn about capturing with Digital Camcorders.

You can use a digital camcorder just like any VCR/DVD Recorder.  You don't have to use the Lens and Mic inputs.  Every port on the camera is bidirectional (in VCR/Playback mode, the outputs can also be inputs, all you have to do is hit record, you're in VCR/Playback mode so the lens and mic are off.)

The same ports that send output to a composite TV will accept input from an output device such as your commodore, and that method won't capture any ambient noise, since it's using direct audio in from the commodore as well, and you can output to multiple devices so you can still have a tv or monitor hooked to the commodore.  (that's what that nifty toy you linked from amazon does) and most newer tv's have a monitor output, and you could send that to the camera.

I've captured my commodores output directly with my video camera and shot it into my video capture software using the I.Link 1394 Port on the camera.  Some software will let you do that directly, and other software will want to control deck playback and so you would need to record it onto tape first, but either way, there is zero quality loss.

As far as audio sync issues, sounds like you have bad codecs with the capture software.  Try something different to capture, even windows movie maker will capture in perfect sync if you're capturing from a twain compliant source or firewire/i.link/1394.

Of course trying to play a game on the camera's internal screen is ridiculous, and transport over firewire does have latency of about half a second with most software capture apps, so yeah, there needs to be a full size analog screen somewhere along the line, but I personally find something that is able to do the analog to digital conversion independent of the computer, and then the result transfered to the PC after the fact, works much more reliably, than a software driven USB conversion or Analog capture card.  That's why I suggest a DIGITAL video camera, it can do that conversion flawlessly to whatever type of medium the camera uses, and then digitally transferred to the computer in a native format that the computer already speaks (MPEG or AVI depending on what language the camera speaks, tape based digitals use uncompressed "DV AVI" and HDD/HCSD based cameras used high quality compressed AVI or MPEG depending on the model, some are even high definition. (720P, 1080P, etc)

Link to my C64 capture using my Sony Digital8 Camera as transport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlGwJvfr12s (Some quality loss in this youtube due to compression to WMV format.  The original DV AVI is awesome.  That's to big to post on youtube.)