Planet M.U.L.E.

If being like the original is the ultimate goal, then:

1) The pirates should be able to show up in round 12.  They did on the C-64 version (dunno about the Atari version).  it would def ad an element of surprise :-)  I know it did when they hit the first time on the C-64 in round 12.  both the pirate ship and the colony ship could "land" on the store in the C-64 version at the same time because they actually landed in different spots.

2) anything else?

I played the C-64 version and I have never seen this happen. Not that I'm unwilling to believe you, but that contradicts the basic idea of how events work. If pirates can happen, then that means any other event could happen as well (based on how events are selected, i.e. a "deck").

Can you provide a screenshot showing the pirate ship landing in a different place?

you know I could have swore that the 2 ships landed in different spots on the store.  But I downloaded an emulator and and got a mule ROM and they actually are landing in the same spot.  I might have to dig out the old C-64 and fire it up and try and load mule up and see on there...  not like my old 1541 would work anymore prob out of alignment HAHA  Any chance that there are different versions of mule that ran on the C-64? maybe this ROM has been tampered with and is no longer 'original'.  Maybe my memory is fading in my old age lol

What's still missing:

- players start with only 2 units of energy
- player events round 1
- ALL global events round 1
- land auctions round 1
- store mule building capacity (all available smithore to fill the store)
- radiation and pest attack also possible to happen to 2nd position (I don't have any empirical evidence that this would be the case at the moment, although somebody commented the contrary)
- less available time/slower player movement balance with original (will also correct the complained land auction behaviour)
- double check the probabilities of the events compared to the original
- top/down exits of store (actually they help only getting out but hinder getting in compared to the original...)

I'm already happy with the current state, after all, it's the same for everybody. The original just seemed to have the "magical" balance between all things...

Based on Kroah's pseudocode, it's a "deck" of 22 events, from which 11 are drawn. The makeup of this is deck is completely known.

Yeah, maybe it was unnecessary. I just wanted to emphasize the fact that the probabilities change if certain events are not possible to happen on round 1.

In agreement with you. Irata is not a friendly place.

The big thing that is missing is COLLUSION.

Almost overlooked that, thanks!

Also, just been informed that player land auctions do not let the selling player set the minimum bid as in the original. I figure this would be one of the last things to add considering I've never seen it used that often, and its interface is slightly different than that of the other auctions.

Well, collusion and land auctions are pretty much things joined at the hip. I cannot think of any circumstance in which you would willingly part with a piece of land OTHER than an intentionally orchestrated deal with another player to achieve adjacency or other similar purpose. As you've seen from the "true value of land", it's basically impossible for you to randomly sell land to a random person at anything close to its true worth, so you'd never actually DO it unless you were trading plots with someone.

well i can't seem to get collusion working on the 800 emulator either, so.

collusion works differently for normal and land auctions.

Collusion for land auctions is simple. seller presses button until the desired buyer is activated, lowers reserve, player goes up and buys it. Very easy to implement in planetmule i think.

Collusion for regular auctions requires that both players press their button on the exact same frame, and it freezes the other players where they are. This one is hard to implement.

My general sense is the pricing algorithm is not quite right.

For example, in the original, Food and Energy are less sensitive to actual production in the current round and priced more based on demand/production in the previous round.  In this version, producing for food and energy drastically cuts down the store price and these commodities are rarely useful.

Similarly, Smithore pricing is out of balance.  At least to me, C64 version's smithore was often the LEAST valuable commodity, providing few price swings but consistent returns.  The increase of Smithore's value and massive price swings in this version diminishes that of Crystite specifically, and food/energy generally.

Whereas food/energy are very sensitive to supply/demand, crystite is completely insensitive to it in the old version (oscillating randomly although often depressed in a weak economy where other commodities are high in price), and smithore was sensitive but in a generally narrow range of price, often not topping $64 and certainly not getting to $230.  Food and energy were the ones that could often fetch $200+ prices and were slower to come down in price, allowing some attempt by suppliers to enter these markets and net a solid profit.

I'll be happy to play old more Mule and confirm my suspicions on the differences.  I know I play Planet Mule very differently than C64 MULE. 

The pirates never showed up in round 12 in the original.

As for what's missing.

- three high crystite deposits. (as opposed to four)

- food and energy requirements in the 12th round. To have enough food in the 12th round meant that you needed 1 unit of food for each plot. Energy was needed at a rate equivalent to the number of non-energy producing plots. Believe it or not, this changes late game strategy a lot.

- Smithore prices when not spiking were assigned values based on a $7 variation. 22,29,36,43,50,57,64,71, and 78 were the variation numbers when smithore was not scarce. I'm not sure if 15 and 85 were a part of the variation, since they would have occurred extremely rarely in any event.

- Crystite prices are correct. Although auctions were skipped in the event there was no production.

- Pub gambling is a tad high in the early game. AI regularly wins more than $200 in the early game pub.

- The original pirate ship was cooler in the original, and the sound effect of the pirate attack was also cooler. The same applies to all the events. Make the events sound more sinister, like the original.

- It's hard to tell when there is a sunspot activity, because every production round now seems to say "energy at 100%," even when there isn't a sunspot activity. Should it say energy at 200% in the event of a sunspot activity. Maybe I didn't notice.

- The store is correct.

- The AI was better, largely because it can catch the wampus now, and it gets really good results at gambling in the pub. Other than that, the AI seemed to make bizarre choices, like making 8 plots of food when food wasn't at a high price. They played better than the Nintendo version (but worse than the commodore version)

- The AI seems to have a lot of time on its hand. For instance, I've seen an AI player do this much in a given turn. It would develop a plot of land, then catch the wampus, then assay three plots of land, then gamble at the pub for a large sum of money as if it didn't use up any of its time. That is a lot, particularly variable is the time it takes to catch the wampus.  On top of that, the pub gambling after the AI did of of the above stuff, and then won about $200 in the first round. Pub gambling in the 1st round was usually about $50 if you've used up most of your time. You'd get about $100 in the first round if you used up a small amount of time, and that is if you're lucky. $200, is a bit much in the early game.

- The AI failed to purchase enough energy on a few occassions where it could have relatively cheaply. One time an AI player was short 3 units of energy and it sat of the $2x dollar line (I think around $28 or so) and that was the highest it was willing to bid for energy when it was short. Of course the old AI had the opposite problem, paying $300 per unit of food and the like.

- In the classic version the maximum number of times any event could occur is as follows.

From http://www.smithore.com/eventstats.php

Out of 1093 games, each of these events occurred a certain number of maximum times. For instance pest attack occurred 4 times in two out of 1093 games. Meteor Strike happened 3 times in three out of 1093 games.

Pirate Ship:
 2 x
 (in 301 Tournaments)
 No. 1091
 
 
Pirates take all crystite
 
Sunspot Activity:
 3 x
 (in 150 Tournaments)
 No. 1089
 
 
Energy output is increased
 
Acid Rain Storm:
 4 x
 (in Tournaments)
 No. 883
 
 
Food output up, energy reduced
 
Pest Attack:
 4 x
 (in 2 Tournaments)
 No. 580
 
 
Meteorite Strike:
 3 x
 (in 3 Tournaments)
 No. 1080
 
 

Meteor makes new crystite deposit
 
Fire in Store:
 3 x
 (in 345 Tournaments)
 No. 960
 
 
All the stock in the store is lost
 
Planetquake:
 4 x
 (in 4 Tournaments)
 No. 716
 
 
Mining production half of normal
 
Radiation:
 3 x
 (in 14 Tournaments)
 No. 1082
 


 

Starting energy at 2 is important. 1st turn events can make the game really interesting, especially 1st turn fire in store. This should be added back. 1st turn player events should be added back, although player losing a plot of land on the 1st turn was limited to players who had more than 1 plot. I'm fairly confident of this.

1st turn events/player events are the most important of these. Except that players with only 1 plot of land should never lose a plot of land on the first turn.

These two guys recorded events for 1093 games of M.U.L.E.

http://www.smithore.com/eventstats.php

One last thing, planetquake occurs before prouduction, not after. You don't mine 6 units of smithore and then magically lose three due to a quake. The quake disrupts production, such that you don't mine 6 in the first place, you end up mining 3 instead. Planetquakes are not like pirates that steal half of your mining production. So the production order should be switched to the original. Pirates should remain the way they are.

Beginner and expert species are very much missing. Anyone with less than X number of games gets beginner advantages, and anyone with more than X number of games gets expert disadvantages. Implementing this regardless of species would make the games more evenly competitive.

This is not a very good idea because many of the players have been playing M.U.L.E. for 25 years on the Atari and Commodore version.

A lot of new players are just starting out. The original game offered a beginner species suited to their experience. Giving beginners the ability to be more competitive is great (Making every new player watch the introduction video would be awesome.). I'm not so concerned about how to determine who's a beginner and who's not. I would be happy allowing anyone who thinks they are beginner to have access to the beginner "species."

Your point about the shortcoming of determining beginners by total games played is good. Thanks for bringing it up.

I have the Atari 8 bit version and have played hundreds of times and have never seen a pirate ship in round 12.  The pirates came 1 to 2 times per game.   

A time where you would want to sell some land is when you get screwed out of food in the early rounds via pest attack or mule gone crazy.  The player can rot on the vine for 3 rounds and end up with no money and a bunch of dead plots.  The only way he will get some cash is by selling one of his plots.   This has happened many times in 4 player gamesl.

That early on in a game, no one ever has enough money to pay properly for said desperate players plot... they usually hope to catch the wampus, a good break and then take a run at coming in at least 3rd in the games I've played.

If he does sell the land he is usually giving the game away to the buyer... and in other words he certainly won't be winning!

Why give the game to someone when it thereby excludes the possibility of you winning?

The greater challenge, and possibility for success, remains in holding onto the plot and making wild gambits - although less likely I have seen people win from such a position.

When the competition is fiercest, the other 3 players will be so busy worrying about one another, that you will still have some small advantages... their gratitude for you not quitting or giving it away can also be exploited.

Besides digging into last for 11 turns with dynamite instead of a shovel and then winning is a very liberating experience.

I agree it might be missing, but collusion and player plot auctions are totally worthless features imo.

     Why did Planet Mule try so hard to just copy the original game and spruce up the graffics? Sure we all loved the old MULE game but it had many flaws that should have been looked at and fixed not just carried over! The biggest joke to me is during the Auction phase where a guy can bid the price of a plot up as high as posible and just drop off the screen at the last second! I would rather see it where you cant drop off the screen and your required to pay ATLEAST the minimum at the bottom of the screen. A few new events could have also been added along with other original mule problems being improved! Even in last place i still run into the problem of a guy snatching my plot away! Much less of a problem than in the original game but still happens on occasion.

Agreed, the auctions are ridiculous. The original version had just the right amount of time for auctions, thus preventing $1000 per unit of food scenarios. Auction timers should be reverted back to the original version.

Pirates could attack in round 12, at least in the C64 version. They land in the store after the ship with a red box indicating they landed. [Cool sound for the pirate attacks, too.]

YES! I knew that they did that.  I just knew it happened to me back when I was a kid playing :-)  thanks for confirming it. ;D

Never once have I seen a pirate ship on the last development.  Are you guys sure you were playing on Tournament mode?  And C64?

Hundreds of games played, never played anything but Tournament.  Wish I could find a quote somewhere, maybe Kroah could help...

Ah yes here it is from: http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/Mule/mule_document.html


Round event probability

At the last game round, the event is the return of the colonial ship. Otherwise, a random event is chosen.

Each event can occur only a limited number of time per game:

Event            Max per game
Pest Attack           3
Pirate Ship           2
Acid Rain Storm   3
Planetquake   3
Sunspot Activity   3
Meteorite Strike   2
Radiation           2
Fire in Store   2

I remember pirates coming last round in C64 Tournament games...

Kroah used "The MULE version, used as a basis for this document, is a dump of the game for Atari 800 system in ATR format whose checksum is F76D2896." Maybe only the C64 version had last round pirates?

 

I've only played the c64 as well but have read the main differences between Atari original and c64 were minor fixes:

c64 got

1) truly random maps
2) commodity values ignore traded values on the last turn
3) planetquake no longer moves mountains / destroys mules

Read more here:
http://www.worldofmule.net/tiki-index.php?page=Atari+800

FWIW: I consulted my much older (blessed with an excellent memory) brother (one of my core opponents when I played as a kid on the C64). He remembered the pirates coming last round, too. But he adds, it was rare.

Too bad these guys don't have the source code, then we would know 100%.  I wonder if there were minor version changes floating around... possibly small variations in the different production runs. I wonder how many copies of mule for the C-64 sold?

Sorry his memory is either wrong or he was playing another version of the game. Don't know how many sold but we still have one...

For more evidence, checkout this page from some real fanatics:

http://www.smithore.com/eventstats.php

They don't even list a column for round 12 events of this kind for either atari or c64 (I guess they have moved platforms at some point). This is in keeping with Kroah's decompilation, on the last round the event is the colony ship. See my earlier reply for that iyl.

After playing a few games of the original atari mule via emulator I have come up with these major differences

Land Auctions

 First player to reach the minimum bid flashes(indicating he will win) if no one out bids.                       
  Need further testing to determine how it picks who flashes when all players reach bid line first.

 Starting bid rises with the maximum bid allowing players to back out of bidding.

 Because of slower player movement max price hike of about 1k is possible
  Result you didn't see high plot prices until late in the game after several auctions have occurred

 Auctions can happen on the first round.

Player selling land

 Seller is at the top and buyers at the bottom

 Seller controls the price up or down of his plot in real time as the timer runs.
  High bid gets the plot unless seller hikes it beyond any ones range.

Wampus

Appears once each players turn and every round thru 12. Players must touch it while it is visible without pressing the button to catch it. Can appear on player's plots.  Far more random appearing once to 3 times on the same mountain before moving. Result, much harder to catch them planetmule's version.

Store
No top or bottom exit to the store.

Auctions

Movement speed is much slower resulting in smaller price increase then planetmule's version


Events

Individual player events can occur first round including plot loss.


My thoughts on these differences

Land auction buying

Restore the price increase and minimum bid line to match the atari without changing the players movement speed or timer by decreasing the numerical increase from $4 steps to 3, 2 or 1. 
For example you can decrease it to $1 per step and have a almost perfect match to the original.
Designating the first player that reaches the bid line by flashing will not work due to inherent internet lag and hosting advantage.
So I suggest the lowest rank player wins any ties when timer runs out.
Bring back land auctions to turn one

Land auction by player

Make it just like the original!!!

Wampus

Make it just like the original!!!
 

Store exits

Keep it with the bottom and top exits.
This change increased the dynamics and choices during development adding to the game.


 Events

Bring them back to round one like the original.

Rhodan I approve and agree with almost everything in your list, awesome job.

I would like to add that the Wampus could sometimes completely screw a guy by moving a lot and / or staying on the top most mountains where he could not be caught.  He was a dot and the hit box to catch him was 4 dots big forming a square about the knee height of the pc sprites.

I do disagree on the suggestion for the lowest rank to always get the plot, it has to be random for reasons I have stated before, but let me reiterate a little.  A plot sold on turn one, who gets it - the guy in last?  When everyone has ~4k on hand and the price starts at 1k who gets it - the guy in last?  Its the guy in last every time, unless the price or his wallet reaches a point where he can't afford it.  You are changing mechanics again, or the results of them at least...

You quote host advantage and internet latency as impossible problems in emulating the existing system online.

But since the game is now centrally hosted I don't see the first point at all.

As to your second point I would expect it is possible with a very lean client or client service, on a clean machine, to communicate fast enough, and reliably enough to fool most people into thinking everyone is in perfect sync... any ping above 300 ms is going to ruin a shooter game, most people can get <150 ms and a bunch can get ~10.  So you have to design the clients to sync on a real time clock and allow for start and stops that at least meet the maximum ping you expect to support.  It might sound hard but its probably pretty easy and I think its the only way to do it right.

Simpler solution?  How about you assume everyone is going to start running up to buy on a land auction it wouldn't be the end of the world would it?  Until they press down they are going up, in "sync" making the first one there random.

I prefer the real time sync'd clients... it would be awesome if the clients could synchronize based on each others maximums + a safety margin for their group latency, and not be a static guess.  It would also vastly improve all the different auctions real time interactions with other players.  Might even form a good base for version II and some damn good features I have heard around here like simultaneous development for one thing.

Spectators should be of no consequence to player latency and are allowed to even be completely out of sync.

The server and its connections on the hand have got to be sweet.  On that note, I did mention monthly fees...  I know 4 guys who would become card carrying members on day 1.  Guaranteed.

 8)

I wanted to do a little consolidation of old posts from this thread. I chopped them up in an effort to summarize what hadn't been discussed in Rhodan and Blitzen's last posts. I wish this could have been more definitive, but this is what I rounded up...

I could pick over small details in the current version ad naseum... most of what you have quoted as said was true to the original but far from all it...

That's why I would prefer to see a decompilation of the slightly improved original c64 version (over the atari 800) used to simply clone the original in every aspect.  I would gladly accept one based off Kroah's atari 800 version barring that.

With the c64 version I would look forward to only really needing the following bug discussions:

- the bug on plot auctions when you are "first" and you hold up even when you can't run the bid up anymore... and you will win so long as you keep holding up!
- the bug which causes the Wampus to be uncatchable at the top of the map
- the bug which lets you set the price of crystite in the 12th development
- the bug where you place a mining mule in a river plot and then add a food mule (hiding the other mule who disappears after the round)

And the following subtle tweaks

- the fact that win/lose a plot in turns < 4 is extreme
- the fact that collusion is way too open to abuse online
- mountains in the two plots adjacent to the store suck harry nut sacks


But since it is nice to have some consolidation... For the record the things I disagree with that you quoted are:

- 12th turn... "you needed 1 unit of food for each plot"
- smithore... "often not topping $64 and certainly not getting to $230"


Smithore actually went to 255 in many games we played, sometimes 3 times.

I do agree especially with food and energy prices dropping too quickly.

And also, energy "requirements"... there was a bonus to production if you had extra energy according to the manual, not sure where I read about this online anymore either.  Couldn't find a mention of it in Kroah's decompilation when I looked quickly.  I'll look some more later... but I might of been smokin'

Somewhere in the guides to plot auctions, initial value is said to be a function of the average price.  In the original it was the last price - 60 bucks when they sold and another one came up right away... also reading Kroah's the average price was based on the last round of land auctions and not for all land auctions since the beginning of the game... the guide makes it sound like the average is calc. from the beginning of the game and used to determine the start price for each and every plot to be sold at the land auction by the "colony".   The negative consequence here is that the land would have a cheaper opening bid in planetmule if not for the added difference in being able to run them up so quickly now.

Finally I just wanted to say that I know that when I read something I disagree with I will often post a reply if I have the time, if someone else posts a reply and I agree with it I might not even reply... considering the matter to be "handled."  So even though its not in my nature to post my approvals I will try to do it more often...

Is this a bug or feature? After all, you are spending all your money (mod 4), and it exists in both versions.

Agreed. Doesn't ruin the game though, wampus is still a lot harder to catch than on Planetmule.

???

Its debatable if the C64 is improved over the original atari version.

I knew about all the bugs except setting the price of stite in the 12th and the mining mule on the river.

I do agree that food and energy pricing doesn't match the original and i miss the colony has a shortage of food and energy messages.
Please fix the pricing of food and energy in the last rounds. Energy can be to high when there is no colony shortage and food to low when there is a shortage. I dont recall this happening in the originals

@Piete I agree those original flaws are all up for debate in a proper remake

@Rhodan I agree the current goods pricing algorithm is a poor emulation, how the store determines prices has changed

And about the mining mule in the river, its been a while since I tried it.  I'll double check it on an original sometime too and post a proper report on tripping the bug.  Too bad I don't have room to keep a c64 setup.  What I really need to do is invest in one two of these too (why buy one? I bet I could even keep 3 without spoilage):

Commodore 64/128 rca audio/video monitor cable -- 5$ on ebay

All I got is the old style chroma cables and the pos rca rf boxes.  If I could toss the old monitor it will save some room and I can get it setup to stay!

There is one thing I haven't seen anyone mention.  The turn timer on the c64 version used to run faster when you moved at an angle vs. in straight lines.  I recall this phenomena only happening inside the store.  I haven't noticed this happening at Planet Mule.  Can anyone confirm that A. this indeed happened in the original and B. that is doesn't happen here?

"Its debatable if the C64 is improved over the original atari version. "

You mean its debatable like as if you asked if we really exist right?  Please elaborate, what's the debate!?
There is a record of either the creator or one of his 3 coworkers, stating that with the c64 they had a little more room for code and that they had plenty of time to improve it... since it had been a success on the Atari but they thought it could be even better and hence thought it would also make it more successful.


dynadan you are right to point out the diagonal movement "thing" - I know they said something about that in the manual... however they also imply the different species will have varying abilities but they do not appear to imo.  Moving in a diagonal is faster since it is the shortest path so I wouldn't say they have exactly lied...

Time would slow down when people ran in an auction, and speed up when people stood around but I don't recall noticing it change during developments.  Speaking of which that would complicate the "solution" I have posted since total time is now somewhat variable.

Its presence in the auctions is a time saver and doesn't change the game if it is removed.  But I would love to see a better solution to end auctions early anyway, especially when you consider the late game auction blocking antics that did exist in the original (although to a far lesser extent).

The Atari 800 is the defacto standard for MULE.  The c-64 did have an extra 16k or ram. But it only had two joystick ports not four like the 800. 

I subscribed to all the Atari Mags in the day and remember all the interviews with the programmers.
The atari 800 had better hardware for sprites and colors than the c64.  The c64 had better sound.

I remember Bunten wanting to add more maps.  I think MULE only had 128 (Maybe 256) map variations.  They were not randomly generated.   This means a really good player might figure out all 128 maps and then know were the high crystite was.  But only after enough plots were out to see the possible pattern.

So the c64 might have more maps (Not verified)

MULE is a 4 player game, anything less well is not really MULE.   The AI is so bad in the original and worse in this version  that playing with 3 ruines the game.   

I was in a group of 8 that loved the game and we tried 3 player (No AI) etc.  And it just did not work.  If there were only 3 people we would rather find the 4th vs playing at all.   

I'll have to check out this Oct 5th 2010 release.  The previous version was so unlike the original I stopped playing.

maybe this latest patch fixes some things.